to be thoroughly sick of the double standards

[teaandakitkat]

My son aged 10 is in a class of 25, 23 averagely well behaved kids, and two nightmare boys. They have both joined the school in the past year because they were permanently excluded from their last school.
I know they have crap, chaotic home lives, I know they are unhappy on the inside, I know all the other kids have way more advantages and are really the lucky ones. But I honestly am so sick of the double standards.

The teaching staff pander to them all the time. They can't control their behaviour. All normal sanctions don't apply to these kids . They have Golden Time free play on a Friday, if you misbehave during the week you lose it. Apart from these boys who never lose anything despite their behaviour. I honestly think the teachers are scared of them and scared of their reactions, they do anything to keep them quiet.

I'm a parent helper in the school and am often in the classroom. One of them called the teacher "a fat shit" and the teacher said "X, we don't speak like that in this classroom. Please don't speak for the next 5 minutes". The kid gave her the finger.
I've seen her send other kids to the head teacher and lose all their golden time for less than that. One of the kids challenged the teacher's blatantly unfair decision and she lost golden time for being cheeky!

There is half an hour on a Thursday where the kids are allowed outdoors if they have all their homework finished, if not they stay indoors and finish it before going out. Apart from these two boys, they have never done homework and are always outdoors.

Now I get that they need extra help, I get that they have no support at home with homework, but the blatant double standards are causing trouble. These kids know they are untouchable and brag about it to the others all the time. The others are getting seriously frustrated and I can see some of their behaviour getting worse as they try out more silly behaviour to see what they can get away with.

Last week my son and his friends were not allowed to take part in a school swimming lesson because of some stupid behaviour earlier in the week. Fair enough, I have no problem with that. But x and y were allowed to swim, despite one of them repeatedly kicking a football at a window until it broke earlier in the week. I was in school, I saw it. The teachers were scared to go up to him and stop him.

The head teacher is the only one who seems able to handle them but she's got an entire school to run, not spend all her time with this pair. If they are put out the class they go and spend the time with the head, helping her with whatever she's doing or sitting on a seat outside her door playing on the school iPad. (Again I've been in school, I've seen this on many many occasions, and heard them bragging to the other kids about the youtube videos they've been watching during class time)

I have mentioned it informally a couple of times but I think it's time for something more. It's not fair. If they need to make exceptions then surely they have to be more subtle. I know 3 other parents went to see the head teacher together but were just fobbed off with a story about 'inclusion' and the school's duty of care to everyone.

I'm not sure what sort of solution I'm looking for though. There are difficult people in all walks of life and that's part of life learning how to deal with them, right?

Would it help if they troublemakers were in different classes? I don't know why they were put in the same class in the first place, my instinct would be to split them up. Or will they not be able to separate them now because it would stigmatise them or something?

There is an extra teaching assistant in their class, not specifically assigned to these boys I don't think, but I'm sure she's there to support the teacher.

But at the end of the day why is it ok for one kid to call a teacher a fat shit in front of the whole class and have no sanction at all, or smash a window and get to sit outside the head's office watching YouTube? That can't be right.

So now I've got all that off my chest I'd be keen to hear if anyone has any practical suggestions for what I can do. I don't want to just go into school with yet another complaint. I feel for the staff, they're in a rubbish situation. But it's really really not fair on the others. Can anything be done?

Well we will always need teachers so the government will have to do some of those things at some point to make the career an attractive enough option to retain/recruit the teaching staff we need.

There certainly seem to be many more children presenting with ASD traits than in years gone by. There are various theories for this.

Reasons I'm leaving state education:

• lack of time
• lack of support

I know I could do a better job if I had the time to properly plan lessons, mark work, learn more about teaching strategies, discuss ideas with colleagues.

I know I could do a better job if I was allowed some cpd, if my students had access to specialists for mental health support, literacy support and I had someone I could call on for help if I'm struggling.

Despite repeatedly asking for help with a difficult class last year and being denied any, my colleague was refused pay progression based solely on the exam performance of that class. She had no support and was blamed for poor exam results. She met all of her performance management targets and had evidence of the times she had requested help with this class. This was the end for me - too much being asked of classroom teachers and nothing being given in return.

My DD is diagnosed with ASD.

The reason more children (and girls in particular) are being diagnosed with ASD is because the condition is now much better understood. Until relatively recently only severely affected children were considered autistic.

There is, according to my reading (amusingly enough, Sacha Baron Cohen's dad is a world expert) precisely no evidence that ASD has become more prevalent. In the past, such people were just considered a little odd.

To my mind, while the diagnosis is very important in understanding my DD's character, she needs boundaries, discipline and structure just as much as any child - in fact more so. People with ASD are not morality-free zones, in fact, fairness is often particularly important to them: leastways the ones who have had the chance to understand proper standads of behaviour and boundaries.

If my DD swore at a teacher, the consequence I would impose on her would be unpleasant. It would certainly not involve sweets.

And this is why I get frustrated when it is advocated that children with SEN need not meet minimum acceptable standards in the classroom. What my DD needs is understanding of her condition, and that actually means she is probably treated with less latitude than her classmates in some respects.

I will make an observation that I don't mean to cause offense, but might. For this I apologise in advance. It is that the culture in the UK makes it very hard to have a frank, accurate conversation about these things. Too many people are far, far too quick to take unnecessary offence and shut down the debate. You have to get out of the UK to see this.

I will also add that UK schoolteachers have my absolute admiration. I am appalled at how they are regulated, corralled and micromanaged at every turn, and yet blamed for every falling. I can't understand how you stick it out.

"If you step on my foot, you need to get off my foot.

If you step on my foot without meaning to, you need to get off my foot.

If you step on my foot without realizing it, you need to get off my foot.

If everyone in your culture steps on feet, your culture is horrible, and you need to get off my foot.

If you have foot-stepping disease, and it makes you unaware you’re stepping on feet, you need to get off my foot. If an event has rules designed to keep people from stepping on feet, you need to follow them. If you think that even with the rules, you won’t be able to avoid stepping on people’s feet, absent yourself from the event until you work something out.

If you’re a serial foot-stepper, and you feel you’re entitled to step on people’s feet because you’re just that awesome and they’re not really people anyway, you’re a bad person and you don’t get to use any of those excuses, limited as they are. And moreover, you need to get off my foot." - Hershele Ostropoler

I would advise joining the board of governor s .I did this at my dcs school specifically to get one child excluded. It was a long hard fight though but we won in the end

That's right. And my experience with my DD is that she needs to be told things like that in a straight forward way.

She also needs firm, consistent boundaries, otherwise she gets confused and upset. Relaxing them "because she's SEN" would be absolutely counterproductive.

As other posters have said, pandering to difficult children is doing them no favours in the long run, plus it is making other children's lives a misery. This thread has been a thoroughly depressing read.

Toad, I for one am glad the UK has laws regarding disablism and at least in theory the comments like the one that got deleted are not tolerated.

Good for you.

Where I live has anti-discrimination laws too, and they are rigorously applied. They do not and should not be allowed to prevent or suppress a frank exchange of views on the subject of classroom management.

How can schools maintain discipline, if teachers have to proceed on the basis that any child who misbehaves might have 'hidden' SEN, and therefore should not be sanctioned?

This is a recipe for chaos and bullying. And sadly, those most likely to be bullied tend to be those with ASD and specific learning difficulties like dyspraxia.

Quite so. And how are teachers expected to maintain their self respect, or use and develop their initiative to do their best for all children if they have to be constantly on guard against accusations of disablism, a word that, incidentally, doesn't turn up in my Swype dictionary.

My reading of that deleted comment was that it was questioning the idea that all children who refuse to behave should be regarded as having SEN (which was why the reference to 'SEN' in scare quotes). Many older NT children and adolescents (and adults!) are entirely capable of 'behaving like animals' in certain group situations.

The presumption that all children want to behave well in the classroom, and that therefore if they don't it's because they can't is highly dubious once children are older, and especially in secondary where conforming to peer expectations is so important.

Kesstrel that comment got deleted and with a reason that it was disablist - a reason that is not put very often on here.

I think you should send your head teacher a version of what you've said here. And ask to see her.

It isn't doing those two kids any favours at all, if the aim here is to help them.

And it's setting a very bad and confusing example for the other children. And it's obviously unfair.

Unfairness was the worst thing to have to deal with at school. And as a child, you can only depend on the decent and strong adults to correct unfairness. I think you should stand up and go to the head, and set this out in no uncertain terms.

If you are told you're being difficult, get others to speak up too.

I can't speak for other schools,but at my school there are consequences. They might look like they are not happening,or not harsh enough to both kids and parents but they exist. You trash the corridor,you have to tidy it up at some point,you hurt children during play,you do miss play,or spend with with SLT or go to a different playground,parents are spoken to etc. Some things might be ignored,or look like they might be ignored because the kid is looking for attention,to get out of doing work or simply they just need to have their blowout "safely" so that they can then calm down and get on with their day after.

AmeliaLion

Your earlier mention of the ridiculous notion that 'children will behave if lessons are engaging enough', is something that seems to be rife among senior management in many schools. It shows a complete lack of understanding of adolescent psychology; it is truly shocking that so many of those with power in education perpetuate this nonsense.

Behaviour management should be run centrally, with centralised detentions, and the responsibility for chasing up pupils removed from individual teachers. Given how overburdened teachers are, this is the only way to create school-wide perception high behaviour expectations that are fairly and consistently enforced.

This is one of the recommendations of the report on classroom behaviour that came out a few days ago, from the teacher consultation led by Tom Bennett. SLT should be taking responsibility for this, rather than undermining individual teachers by not supporting their attempts to implement the school's behaviour policy.

All children need boundaries but it may not be possible for them all to have the same boundaries ( in the same way that they won't all have the same opportunities but that unfairness is seen as being ok).
For the boundaries that need to apply to all children there may need to be different ways of ensuring or trying to ensure that those boundaries are kept to.

There seem to be a number of issues being discussed here and muddled up, from low level constant mucking around and disruption prevalent in so.many secondary classrooms and serious sen, hidden or diagnosed or not. My point about the original issue remains: these children may be facing consequences, as rebel says, but they may not be the same as others. Maybe the blanket extra play if you have done your homework is not appropriate for this class if it will lead to such feelings of unfairness. I absolutely do not tolerate rudeness or violence in my class (chairs have been thrown and I have been sworn at) and children are given consequences appropriate to them. Key to 'discipline' for these children is their relationship with me and empathy. . its tough, we work hard so it doesn't impact too much on the others but are making definite progress and behaviour is class is much better.
They still 'step.on feet' from time to time, but ere learning other ways to deal with this urge. It's a long journey for them.

Ha ha just stepped on someone's foot getting off the bus. Better miss my play. Or avoid buses in future...

Perhaps if Primary schools had a better mix of staff things would improve.

No-one is suggesting that kids with Sen shouldn't be sanctioned. But how they are approached should be dependant on the individual child. The op mentioned a child being reprimanded for something she felt any other child would have been sent to the head for. Some children would be mortified at being sent to the ht and it would be an effective consequence for them. What if the teacher knew that that particular child was acting out because they struggle with the work and are trying to get sent out of class? The teacher may be trying their best to manage it in a different way. Which seemed to be working aside from the op feeling it was unfair.

It's sad that some people need it explaining to them that saying children with Sen are incapable of behaving like human beings is disablist. But if the word isn't in your dictionary then obviously the prejudice doesn't exist.
Teacher training doesn't involve any medical training yet some feel they can decide which children have 'real Sen' and which don't. I've had a teacher tell me my very hf child didn't appear autistic. I decided to go with the view of the paediatrician who was an autism specialist having worked with/studied children with autism for her whole career rather than a teacher who didn't think my child was the same as the autistic child in the last school she worked at.
My child, incidentally, is one of the best behaved in the class so I'm told and in top groups for everything. Maybe I should go in and complain about those pesky nt kids that mess around and take the teachers time away from my precious child?

wow top groups....cool

Thanks! We're really proud of how hard he tries at school despite finding many things more difficult than most children