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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to be thoroughly sick of the double standards

317 replies

teaandakitkat · 27/03/2017 13:42

My son aged 10 is in a class of 25, 23 averagely well behaved kids, and two nightmare boys. They have both joined the school in the past year because they were permanently excluded from their last school.
I know they have crap, chaotic home lives, I know they are unhappy on the inside, I know all the other kids have way more advantages and are really the lucky ones. But I honestly am so sick of the double standards.

The teaching staff pander to them all the time. They can't control their behaviour. All normal sanctions don't apply to these kids . They have Golden Time free play on a Friday, if you misbehave during the week you lose it. Apart from these boys who never lose anything despite their behaviour. I honestly think the teachers are scared of them and scared of their reactions, they do anything to keep them quiet.

I'm a parent helper in the school and am often in the classroom. One of them called the teacher "a fat shit" and the teacher said "X, we don't speak like that in this classroom. Please don't speak for the next 5 minutes". The kid gave her the finger.
I've seen her send other kids to the head teacher and lose all their golden time for less than that. One of the kids challenged the teacher's blatantly unfair decision and she lost golden time for being cheeky!

There is half an hour on a Thursday where the kids are allowed outdoors if they have all their homework finished, if not they stay indoors and finish it before going out. Apart from these two boys, they have never done homework and are always outdoors.

Now I get that they need extra help, I get that they have no support at home with homework, but the blatant double standards are causing trouble. These kids know they are untouchable and brag about it to the others all the time. The others are getting seriously frustrated and I can see some of their behaviour getting worse as they try out more silly behaviour to see what they can get away with.

Last week my son and his friends were not allowed to take part in a school swimming lesson because of some stupid behaviour earlier in the week. Fair enough, I have no problem with that. But x and y were allowed to swim, despite one of them repeatedly kicking a football at a window until it broke earlier in the week. I was in school, I saw it. The teachers were scared to go up to him and stop him.

The head teacher is the only one who seems able to handle them but she's got an entire school to run, not spend all her time with this pair. If they are put out the class they go and spend the time with the head, helping her with whatever she's doing or sitting on a seat outside her door playing on the school iPad. (Again I've been in school, I've seen this on many many occasions, and heard them bragging to the other kids about the youtube videos they've been watching during class time)

I have mentioned it informally a couple of times but I think it's time for something more. It's not fair. If they need to make exceptions then surely they have to be more subtle. I know 3 other parents went to see the head teacher together but were just fobbed off with a story about 'inclusion' and the school's duty of care to everyone.

I'm not sure what sort of solution I'm looking for though. There are difficult people in all walks of life and that's part of life learning how to deal with them, right?

Would it help if they troublemakers were in different classes? I don't know why they were put in the same class in the first place, my instinct would be to split them up. Or will they not be able to separate them now because it would stigmatise them or something?

There is an extra teaching assistant in their class, not specifically assigned to these boys I don't think, but I'm sure she's there to support the teacher.

But at the end of the day why is it ok for one kid to call a teacher a fat shit in front of the whole class and have no sanction at all, or smash a window and get to sit outside the head's office watching YouTube? That can't be right.

So now I've got all that off my chest I'd be keen to hear if anyone has any practical suggestions for what I can do. I don't want to just go into school with yet another complaint. I feel for the staff, they're in a rubbish situation. But it's really really not fair on the others. Can anything be done?

OP posts:
thatdearoctopus · 28/03/2017 20:32

I don't think it's such a crime to point out that no one benefits from falsely attributing SEN to children who are 'just' badly behaved, least of all those for whom limited resources are rationed further so they don't get their entitlement. Yes, there explanations behind the bad behaviour, but it is quite frustrating to be told that children have been "failed by the system," when you know that backs have been broken, nerves stretched to beyond breaking point and many thousands of pounds been spent to try to help them, to no avail. Most schools try their damnedest to help such kids, but you can predict in despair where some of them will end up.
And teachers have a duty to educate ALL of their pupils, and we must not and cannot ignore the needs of the compliant biddable NT kids either. Yes, they need less support, but it is their right too to be safe in school and be able to learn.

user1484578224 · 28/03/2017 20:33

so articulate dear octopus

user1484578224 · 28/03/2017 20:38

so is it brain damage or SEN that propels a 10 year old to call a teacher a fat shit? Or does said chid infact have a choice?

WateryTart · 28/03/2017 20:46

It's far too difficult for heads to permanently exclude violent pupils.

If a child hits other DCs and teachers or issues threats then that child should be out of the classroom straight away and out of the school within the hour. For at least 3 days.

If a child tells a teacher to fuck off they should be out of the classroom straight away and possibly sent home. If the behaviour persists then there should be a permanent exclusion for the safety of everyone else.

Teachers and students should feel safe in their workplace not under threat. And not subject to violence, whatever the reason.

If heads were allowed to expel pupils as they could years ago then the LEA would have to step up to provide the extra staff and resources so desperately needed in some schools.

TheRealPooTroll · 28/03/2017 20:48

I think people don't understand what SEN means. A special educational need is a requirement for above and beyond the normal educational provision. If a child doesn't need that they don't have sen. If they do then they do have sen. It can't be falsely attributed.

user1484578224 · 28/03/2017 20:55

Special Educational Needs (SEN) is a legal term. It describes the needs of a child who has a difficulty or disability which makes learning harder for them than for other children their age. Around one in five children has SEN at some point during their school years.

so which part of SEN is calling the teacher a fat shit?

thatdearoctopus · 28/03/2017 20:56

You are missing my point, PooTroll. There are people who are insisting their child can't help their behaviour because they have AN, even when none has been diagnosed - or even close to it by professionals. By excusing such behaviour, or "pandering to it," as some on here have alleged, it undermines the problems faced by kids who really do have needs.

bigbuttons · 28/03/2017 20:58

watery whilst I agree with you the problem is is where to place the expelled child. Some will do better in a different mainstream setting, others ideally need a behavioural unit and these are few and far between now.

TheRealPooTroll · 28/03/2017 21:00

Children with a variety of disabilities/additional needs may lash out physically or verbally - usually due to severe anxiety. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make user?

SomethingBorrowed · 28/03/2017 21:04

I agree octopus

TheRealPooTroll · 28/03/2017 21:05

Well octopus may children are now being diagnosed with things like aspergers as teenagers and adults so lack of a diagnosis doesn't necessarily mean there is no disability. ASD is routinely missed in girls until they are much older.
Children aren't allocated extra provision by schools on the basis of a parent saying their child has additional needs when they don't???? They are given support based on their needs.

RebelRogue · 28/03/2017 21:07

User I already have given one example of how SEN can manifest in violence be it verbally or physically.
Here is another...a child who will lash out at anyone that stands in his was (staff or pupil) but otherwise he will "happily" take himself off,bang his head on the bathroom walls for a while and then come back,clear out the damage if there is any and continue with his work.

WateryTart · 28/03/2017 21:18

watery whilst I agree with you the problem is is where to place the expelled child. Some will do better in a different mainstream setting, others ideally need a behavioural unit and these are few and far between now.

I think there would be a swift return of them if head teachers were allowed to expel pupils. I know they can now, but many don't because of pressure from the LEA. Teachers' Unions have become weak as water. They should support members who refuse to teach a child who has been violent towards them and heads should back their staff not force them to accept such students back into their classrooms.

So many teachers are leaving for just this reason.

user1484578224 · 28/03/2017 21:23

love to know how many ASD girls are breaking windows or calling teacher names

TheRealPooTroll · 28/03/2017 21:27

I have no idea user...

Regards expulsion. Schools do frequently exclude pupils with sen - they just don't record it officially. Wouldn't it be better if children were placed in a setting that met their needs in the first place rather than them having to be expelled to get there?

AmeliaLion · 28/03/2017 21:37

So do you advocate more specialist provision in education pootroll? Or do you mean better provision within a meanstream setting?

TheRealPooTroll · 28/03/2017 21:46

Both. Certainly in my area there are children placed in mainstream because it is the only place available while they wait for a specialist school place. And they struggle. And everyone struggles.
For a lot of children with more mild SEN I think mainstream education should be doable - if it was properly funded. And the idea of inclusion is good.
I think what probably everyone on this thread can agree with is that the current system works for no-one.

thatdearoctopus · 28/03/2017 21:48

What are people's thoughts about the numbers of teachers (in mainstream schools) who are leaving the profession due in large part to the strains of being expected to deal with extremely challenging behaviour with little or no support?

And for those who are criticising them for their efforts so far, what are you expecting to happen when there are simply no new properly qualified teachers coming forward to take their place?

user1484578224 · 28/03/2017 21:54

god octopus its so sad

thatdearoctopus · 28/03/2017 21:59

And there is very little training to deal with it either.

Courses for teachers working with ASD in our area are completely swamped with applications these days, as we are desperate for help with managing and helping these kids. It's hard to even get accepted onto one.

TheRealPooTroll · 28/03/2017 22:08

I think there are many reasons teachers are leaving in their droves. They should be paid more and have their workloads made manageable for a start. And also good quality specialist support.

user1484578224 · 28/03/2017 22:15

Courses for teachers working with ASD in our area are completely swamped with applications these days

weird are there more of them

thatdearoctopus · 28/03/2017 22:19

weird are there more of them

Hmm Confused

thatdearoctopus · 28/03/2017 22:24

They should be paid more and have their workloads made manageable for a start. And also good quality specialist support.

Well, as none of those things are going to happen anytime soon, if ever, I'll repeat my question. What do you think will happen when there are no suitably-qualified teachers left?

DanyellasDonkey · 28/03/2017 22:25

We don't even have any training courses. We are being expected to teach more and more pupils with challenging behaviour, yet the ASN teaching and PSA allocations are cut year after year.

No wonder staff are leaving in droves.