to say that Sweden is too cold and dark to live there?

[Almondmilk]

My partner gets very upset when I say that I don't want to spend my life in Sweden because of cold and dark endless winters. And people aren't friendly. But mostly just wondering if this is absolutely not an argument to not like to wear beanies from september to may.
Aibu?

Almond I'd be really worried about settling with your dh in Sweden, he doesn't seem to value your happiness enough. Dh and I are from different countries, we've lived in a few different countries together - but decisions on whether to live are joint and agreed. Not fitting into a culture for whatever reason can be really damaging to your self-esteem and your health. Take a few trips to France, start the process of introducing France to your dh, get on with planning the rest of your life that doesn't include Sweden.

Definitely agree you need to take your husband to France and get him to see what its like, but in the meantime work on your language skills, Swedish should be comparatively easy to learn (unlike Finnish!). Once you can chat with ease you might find it easier to make friends.

LoupGarou, while your experience sounds absolutely horrendous, it seems a bit unfair to write off a whole nation because of it.

In 25 years in the UK, I have had some horrible experiences too. There were the two occasions when I was reported to SS because people refused to believe in dd's medical condition, despite medical evidence. There was the GP who told me that my first priority should be not to sort out dd's failure to thrive but to get my stitches redone because otherwise my husband would be bound to leave me. There were some pretty horrendous remarks passed by dd's HT on the nuisance of having a disabled child in the school ("you can't expect us to be happy about it"). My ds has had school teachers making nasty remarks about immigrants. He has also been knocked down in the street and had his head stamped on (though not, I hasten to add, by teachers). And on all those occasions I had people making light of the experiences and trying to tell me it was nothing to make a fuss over. It would just never occur to me to look back at that and say "yup, that's what the English are like". To me, it's obvious that those people were wrong.

Should add that my first three years in the UK were very, very lonely. And I spoke fluent English with hardly a trace of an accent.

I absolutely agree that different countries suit different people, and that the OP should not let herself be bullied into living somewhere she is not happy. I saw how bad that was for my mother.

Otoh I think if she is in a long-term cross-cultural relationship, then both she and her dp need to make more of an effort to get to grips with each other's culture. Because any dc she has will be half and half and they need to be able to take a pride in both their cultures.

almond I was in NJ.

OP, unless you are very sure that you want to spend the next 20 years in Sweden then I can only advise you not to have children there. If you do, under The Hague convention, they will be 'habitually resident' in Sweden and you will not be able to relocate them to another country without your husbands permission. If you do come home for a 'long holiday' on maternity leave and don't return, you will find yourself up in front of a high court judge for 'wrongful retention' and the children will be put back on a plane to Sweden.

Please tread carefully.

What Potential said. And even if it was not for the Hague convention, it would seem rather unfair on the children to take them away from one parent (unless abusive) to a new country. So you really need to be sure before you have children, both on where you can bear to live and that you will be able to resolve the question like adults if one of you finds they can't cope for some reason.

Yanbu regarding the weather. DH is Swedish and hates the weather. So do the hundreds of thousands of swedes who have moved to far warmer parts of the world. Personally I love Sweden and love how cosy the winter is. BTW gothenburg is the best place to live in sweden.

Also, it won't matter if you return to your home country, or if the children are citizens of your home country or any other country you want to move them to.

You of course, are free to move home as you wish, but the children would not be allowed to unless you have their fathers clear and unambiguous consent. I would be very cautious - even a partner with the best intentions can promise something, but have a change of heart once children are born, or a relationship breaks down.

I'm sorry to sound like such a harbinger of doom but you don't sound settled in Sweden (and I actually think 2 years is long enough to feel settled there) and I would hate to see you get 'stuck' there because you don't want to be apart from your children.

My own experience is that there is, perversely, nothing 'lagom' about Sweden - you either love or hate it. A friend once said to me "I don't get the Swedes and they don't get me", and that's exactly how I felt. (and the friend was half swedish and had spent roughly half and half of her childhood and adulthood in Sweden/UK, so if she found it tough what chance did I have!).

I totally understand you OP.

I've been to Stockholm many many times and there's no way I could live there. I hate the cold. And dark.

I also understand what you mean about the people. I am yet to find a swede with a sense of humour , also seem to lack kindness/empathy. (Not all swedes I'm sure... but just the ones I've met/know)

almond

No particular encounters, just this general attitude of being extremely self-absorbed. We were at Etnografiska muséet and sitting at the table next to the door that leads outside. Whenever someone opened that door there was a gust of wind that hit us right in the face. And people just kept opening that door and pondering whether it was warm enough to sit outside, oblivious to any draft ... Place is full of these people, who wander around the city thinking only of themselves. Not just the usual Swedish reluctance to engage but a really selfish attitude. ;)

I had a neighbour once with a better (a proper) story, albeit this was 20+ years ago - she was at Ikea in Sthlm to buy fabric for curtains. Found the kind she wanted, took it to the table and started measuring. This other woman comes up and says "oh, I wanted that fabric and that's the last roll!" my neighbour said "yes...? but I got here first, so..." And the woman says "But I was going to sew curtains!" as if that was the clincher so she should get the fabric. This altercation does not surprise me for Stockholm. It wouldn't happen in Uppsala where I live, we'd grit our teeth and bear it.

However, I've browsed Mumsnet long enough to see people complaining of the same shitty attitudes all around Europe. I've also encountered a fair few snotty people in Paris but I understand this is a particularly Parisian trait?

I am shocked at the story above of the nurse's comments. I have friends and colleagues whose children are - despicable expression but l'll use it here anyway - "mixed race". AFAIK this is not something they've encountered, although my black friend was "randomly" stopped not that long ago when driving home (obvious racial profiling based on the vehicle he was driving). Sweden is def not immune to these attitudes and people can be very casually racist, defending indefensible words like "negro". I have a Swedish friend who actually lives in France and has "mixed race" children and she would love to move back home for various reasons. (incidentally my colleague i mentioned has a French partner!)

It's tough if you're miserable. And you can't very well move around the whole country to find a nice place to live. If you hate the winters you do, my BIL couldn't wait to move away from Sweden and back home, he hated the snow with a passion. It seems very selfish of your husband to not consider it. It can be that he genuinely feels that Sweden is better to have kids in, with our generous parental leave and so on?

LoupGarou I think similar regarding the language. I don't see people having extravert conversations with fluent foreigners...or even local. It's all polite. Ok sometimes someone tries to crack a joke and it's a miracle and it's usually polite boring humour. I think we are just fundamentally different.
KC225 my husband says the exact same 'if you made more of an effort'. I have ticked most boxes (job, going out, going to language classes) I don't quite see where to improve apart from accepting that I will always feel like a foreigner.
Therealslimshady1 You did a good job with the hut experience and probably had to sing the same bloody songs that they sing at every celebration.
lottachocca My partner value my happiness a lot usually. He just gets touchy when it comes to saying the truth about Sweden, even though he is more than aware of it...He lived abroad 10 years for those reasons.
Natsku Finnish sounds like hell to learn. And the lifestyle seems more extrem too!

Potentialpoochowner corythatwas would you advise women to have kids in their homecountry? I am scared of this Hague convention and I have seen the damage...

Postagestamppat have you lived there though? I love cosiness too, but again 2 months would be way enough.

AllDaBoats It's better to not have/show emotions, that's the moto.

It really comes down to my attraction to comfort, I am fan of Scandinavian interiors and the quality of housing. We also are a bit cornered with Brexit and it seems completely crazy to settle down here.

If we had no flat I would not even think about living there.

banivani French people can be rude and moody specially in Paris. And everywhere around the world. It happens in London too, but often it's balanced very quickly because some people are over-friendly.

I think my partner considers parental leave and the situation of the flat. We live in the best neighbourhood, it's cute, clean, easy to go around, etc! He can't think about the problems I constantly ruminate: will I stand having no friends, will I stand the winters longer, will I stand having Swedish as first language for my kids, etc. It's natural for him.

I visited Sweden a few times - thankfully just for holidays. I wouldn't want to live there either.

What I'm posting about mainly is to really urge you to take the Hague convention very seriously. I have a few friends that are now going to have to reside in various European cities for (at least) the next 18 years because of this.

Tread carefully!

There is no right answer to whether you can be a foreigner for the foreseeable future, but I think if you find it bad now, then being a new mum there would be a lot worse.

I could not live in my husband's country, it would never work for me, weather wise, having to give up my career (as difficult to continue there although not impossible) and just I knew I'd hate feeling different all the time which is how I feel on every single holiday and family visit I've had there. Nothing to do with anyone else, everything to do with me and where I feel I fit in the world. I knew if he insisted on me going there, he'd be going alone. Luckily he knew that there was no way I would live there, and he is happy to live in many different European countries or even the US, so there was more flexibility on his part.

My worry for you is you know in your heart of hearts this isn't the place for you already, yet your partner seems to be wanting you to become more entrenched, in terms of having children, speaking Swedish. If that's not what you want, you have to act now, not just drift into it, end up disliking him for what he made you do, and divorcing and being stuck there due to Hague.

My sister-in-law is Swedish and I have to say I have generally found it difficult to get to know people in Sweden, but my brother seems to manage so maybe it improves once you have small children and can speak the language. Have only been in summer when it beautiful (if sometimes too hot!) but I know he finds it difficult in winter - we are Scottish so used to grey wet winters but not regularly -20 at the bus stop. Central Sweden is great for wildlife/lakes/forests but very flat. Random people don't chat to you at bus stops but cycling teens will say hello and nobody sets fire to firewood in public BBQ areas! On the plus side the working conditions are usually much better with ridiculous amounts of holiday and parental leave

I think you are in a sticky position, almond, and you have my empathy.

When Dh and I first got together, we went to live and work in his home country. Although I was embedded in a large local family, surrounded by very supportive relatives, with a job and a flat, in a place with marvellous weather, I found it more and more difficult over time.

Fundamentally, I began to notice all those subtle differences that underpin another culture and I found them very difficult to deal with (things like the possessive attitude to knowledge and information, for example, and the baksheesh culture that even extended to getting the registered name changed on a car). The interesting thing was that DH had forgotten what the culture was like after years living in Britain, and eventually we returned here after he admitted he could not really cope with the culture either.

If you've already lived there and found it difficult, then I'd say you've given it a shot.

I don't think it is ever unreasonable to say you cannot live somewhere. Environment is important. Culture is important. There's no point in living a life that is uncomfortable or makes you feel lonely and down.

Isn't there a syndrome you get in Stockholm?

@corythatwas if you read my posts properly you you would see that I wasn't writing off a whole nation at all. I have said repeatedly that I don't like mass stereotypes and I have no idea how representative my experience was, as I mentioning previously it is becoming apparent that I lived in a pretty xenophobic area of Sweden. Every country has crap areas, but if I had wanted to stay in Sweden I would have had to remain in that area due to work (niche scientific profession) and no way would I have wanted to do that as the Swedish people I had to deal with on a daily basis were, by a majority awful.

I don't think the UK is any better, thought I left when I was sixteen, and as I've said I don't think its being fluent or native in a language which is the issue. I was very unhappy in the deep south of the US and I am a native English speaker. Not being able to get on with the people, not the language is what makes true difference in my experience.
I lived in Canada for a while, there is a place there known for being the most racist place in Canada - the Syrian refugees Christmas parade float (which they had made to say thank you to the town) was booed and hissed all the way along its route and abuse was shouted repeatedly at them. Canada ime is a pretty lovely and tolerant place but if I had moved there and encountered that, no way would I want to stay.

banivani I'm white, the nurse meant half breed as in half Swedish half Russian. Yy to the casual racism, it was very depressing.

makeourfuture

LoupGarou Swedes really can be so fucking up their arse. Really. So sorry for you. I have plenty of Russian accquaintances and that one is new to me. Having grown up half-foreign here though I do remember a lot of hostility towards bilinguality for example - things are getting better though.

Almond I do hear you, but I do think a lot is circles you mix in and location. These middle class big city people who only talk about living cost and what have you - boring is only the start of it! But if you're miserable you're miserable, that's all there is. I can certainly see myself in all these descriptions of stuffy Swedes - but I can also see the complete opposite every day in friends and colleagues who go out of their way to make new friends and love chatting to people.

Actually my best advice might be to seek out us half-foreigners. We KNOW. If you wish to expand your horizon by travelling to Uppsala for a look around let me know! ;)

Also, if you're Catholic, even if only by name, the church might be a way to meet some people. Mostly half-foreigners of course.

But I do think you both need to talk more about what you want from life.

banivani thanks, things became even worse when my colleagues found out I'd chosen to be Russian and was formerly British . I lived in the North and a lot of people didn't seem to much like anyone up there, they didn't like people from the south of Sweden, Stockholm, the west of Sweden, the middle of Sweden. Only born and bred in Norrland was acceptable it seemed, yet most of my colleagues had travelled extensively and went to university in Stockholm or the South.

It was a pretty grim nine months, I loved the lifestyle, the natural beauty and the food - I have coeliac disease and I never lived anywhere where the food is as good as Sweden, I wanted to love it there, and went into it considering a permanent move to Sweden, but I just couldn't stick it.

Grumpy feckers. :( Possibly you could have ingratiated yourself by joining in with the hatred? ;) There ARE nice people there, honest to God, some of the loveliest people I know are from the north - generous, open-minded, enthusiastic! But like you said, the experiences you have can completely colour your opinion of a place and that's fair enough I say.

banivani now there's a possibility... I did try taking it all as a joke...there are only so many times you can laugh at/brush off crude insinuations by your subordinates at inappropriate times before it becomes very tedious though. Were those the ones who left the North and didn't go back though?

Joking aside I know there are, I've met some truly amazing and lovely Swedish people outside of Sweden, its just the people I was surrounded by whilst there weren't much fun.

Another problem for me is that I don't like conformism. This might be the source of the rejection...
VladmirsPoutine the Hague thing could be a problem in a third country too then...
Foureyesarebetterthantwo my heart isn't there but I wonder if your heart can be 100% somewhere...Why would be even worst being a mum? I sometimes think that it would help me to be less self centered and Sweden is apparently good for kids...Maybe that's bullsh** and I will still complain about the plain boredom.
I will probably get mad at teachers and milf for dominating me the poor lost foreigner that I am...

TabbyM people say hello. That's it. You have sum it up pretty well. Then it depends on priorities...forest walk or a chat...