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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why it's so transphobic here?

403 replies

user1490186326 · 22/03/2017 12:48

Really what's the big deal if a transwoman uses the women's toilets or changing rooms - they are women after all!

Can you not possibly imagine how hard it must be to be born into the wrong body? Imagine the pain and distress that must cause?

I have a friend who is a transwoman and she is the kindest most gentle soul you could ever meet so hearing her being referred to as a bloke in a dress or that she has a perverted fetish is just heartbreaking.

Can't we just show a little bit of empathy for these people who have been through so much pain already?

OP posts:
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AnotherSpartacus · 23/03/2017 14:13

By the way, there are people out there that LOVE how cis women lay into trans women.

Hmm. Okay, who on this thread is a cis woman? I'm not. I don't have a 'gender identity.' I don't think many gender-critical MNetters do.

Calling us 'cis' might well be misgendering, no?

venusinscorpio · 23/03/2017 14:14

No rigour of thought. As if someone built a house and didn't put a lock on the door, because surely no-one would be so disrespectful as to try to enter where they shouldn't? As if everyone was perfect and there is nobody who would think 'fuck the lot of you, I'm having that'.

Yes, exactly.

Doyouwantabrew · 23/03/2017 14:16

The package for school is a fucking disgrace.

Blaming teenage girls for the violence and hate of middle aged men to a teenage boy is fucking ridiculous and woe betide any school teaching this shit at my dds school. They and their friends of all gender are ready to question this bollocks. Utter mysogynistic bollocks.

VestalVirgin · 23/03/2017 14:20

Hmm. Okay, who on this thread is a cis woman?

Not me.

Calling us 'cis' might well be misgendering, no?

It is. I take offense.

Doyouwantabrew · 23/03/2017 14:20

Actually have decided not to engage with any poster calling me a cis as they so stupid they are not worth my time.

I am a woman and bloody awesome and so are my dds. My dss are men and awesome too.

WoodPigeonInFlight · 23/03/2017 14:28

Excellent posts WhereYouLeftIt

Doyouwantabrew · 23/03/2017 14:33

Yes spot on whereyouleft

DJBaggySmalls · 23/03/2017 14:53

eatpieanddie You have spectacularly missed the point with your pie analogy.
MTTs are taking resources away from women and thats what we on MN object to.

You've ignored the women kicked out of a DV shelter for not wanting to undress in front of someone with a penis.
You've ignored Danielle Muscato taking up space in a shelter for women and children.
You've ignored the Rape Crisis centre closed for 8 years because of a MTT not getting why women sometimes need help from women.
You've ignored the MTT that got a workshop on Lesbians being erased cancelled because it wouldnt include them.

Whosrightsareright · 23/03/2017 14:53

eatpie yest another "trans ally" who has conveniently ignored the fact that actual trans women have posted on this and other threads to directly dispute that women who are gender critical are transphobic.
I didn't see a mention of trans men in your post. Don't worry, my trans child and I both know that when the subject of trans rights comes up its actually trans women's rights being discussed. We're quite used to being ignored. Except by the women of MN who do care that my trans child is traumatised and deserves access to spaces where they aren't in close proximity to male genitals.

This is the only place in which anybody is talking about how we can meet the needs of trans people and women. That is anything but transphobic.

EatSpamAmandaLamb · 23/03/2017 14:56

Making women accept transwomen as women is a way of denying and refusing to challenge male violence.

DJBaggySmalls · 23/03/2017 14:57

I;m not 'cis', I'm a woman. No qualification is needed for anyone to understand that.

PTSD is not transphobia. Stop labelling womens very real distress as transphobia. Stop trying to take over womens spaces.

Fight for a third unisex space and we'll support you.
Try to shut down vital support services needed by women and we'll fight back.

Lalsy · 23/03/2017 14:59

I find the term cis offensive too. I am a woman.

Sagggyoldclothcatpuss · 23/03/2017 15:08

No cis woman here either.
Ovary owning, child bearing, breastfeeding, WOMAN.
No other title accepted or required.

Falafelings · 23/03/2017 15:09

One of the problems is that children are now groomed to think they are trans if they like certain things. Boys - pink/dolls. Girls - blue/cars. Simple gender stereotyping indeed! Sexism.

Morphene · 23/03/2017 15:24

I can't find any particular hatred in my heart for 'cis' per se.

Is it qualitatively different to being referred to as 'NT' in a context where SEN are being discussed?

Morphene · 23/03/2017 15:25

falafel yes that is the biggest problem I see with TA. Reinforcing gender stereotypes when we should be breaking them down.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 23/03/2017 15:29

I am a woman. It's a reality, not an identity. And no feminist is ever cis.

AnotherSpartacus · 23/03/2017 15:31

Morphene, 'cis' means that your gender identity matches your biological sex. So, if I'm a cis woman, I'm biologically female, and happy to be considered inferior to men, emotional, illogical, to be paid less, enjoy being sexually objectified (it's a compliment!) - oh, and I just love pink and shopping and wearing high-heeled shoes, but I'm no good at science, obviously. I've got a ladybrain.

Fuck that.

(I'm not NT, either, so I'll let someone else comment on that).

Lalsy · 23/03/2017 15:31

I think it is different, Morphene. I haven't seen a definition that doesn't rely on insulting sexist stereotypes; it is nothing to do with science or clinical descriptions. I don't believe gender is innate and have seen no evidence that it is. I don't identify with gender of any sort (as an oppressive social construct) and find it insulting that others might label me as so doing. I would not do that to anyone else.

splendide · 23/03/2017 15:52

I used to think that Morphene but I've changed my mind - as above the only definition I can understand is that my genitals match my gender. I don't believe in gender as an innate thing.

I suppose I am cis if you defined it as my genitals matching my pronoun preference.

WhereYouLeftIt · 23/03/2017 16:02

Gender stereotypes do seem to be hardening in the last few years.

I was watching a short documentary made in the early 1960s recently, and at one point it showed children of a variety of ages leaving a building and then another shot of pre-schoolers playing. Their clothing was remarkably unisex. No pink; lots of red, navy, green, white. Boys in shorts, girls in shorts or skirts. Tops unisex. I look in children's clothes stores today, it's heavy on pink/purple and fairies/unicorns for girls and navy/khaki skulls/skateboards for boys. It was a striking comparison.

Ditto for young adults. Long hair, big eyebrows and makeup put on with a trowel, duck pout. Short hair, facial hair, six-pack and biceps. I'm guessing you can work out which is which Grin! A stark contrast to the 1980s when I was in my 20s; most of us had a variation of the hairstyle worn by both Duran Duran and Princess Diana, clothes swung from Punk to New Romantics, and men not daring enough to copy Boy George still went a bit Adam Ant.

I think I'm being nostalgic Sad, but back then there really was a sense that the barriers were coming down. Women were no longer sacked on marriage and men felt more able to be less blokey. We had such hopes and expectations that the future would be more fluid. What the hell happened?

MaisyPops · 23/03/2017 16:24

Surely they're perks of being female, if they want access to 'female spaces'? I can't think of any (gentlemens clubs?) male only spaces so these single sex/gender spaces must be a perk of being a woman? Alternatively, you're saying that a perk of being a man is expecting access to anywhere they want, but that would be ridiculous.
No I do mean male privilege.
Some trans activists (usually MtF transwomen - though not all transpeople are transactivists) seem to want it both ways. They want to be viewed as women but equally feel their voices and views should be heard abover biological women (much like the way male privilege works) and then cry transphobia as a way of silencing biological women raising conecerns about womens rights.

Which is why I find it interesting that you rarely see FtM transactivists claiming they are the same as biological men, demanding access to man spaces and being complete arseholes to women and womens rights. You also dont tend to see/hear FtM trans people being arseholes to men either.

So, i have zero issue with transpeople. I think they need support etc. But I do have an issue with a loud, group of agressive (mainly MtF) transactivists who want to silence womens voices and seem to be using the guise of feminism to hinder discussions around gender equality.

Gallavich · 23/03/2017 16:50

Cis doesn't mean not trans.
Cis means having a gender identity that matches the sexed body.
Since I think that gender is a coercively applied social construct I do not claim to have a gender identity so logically I am not cis.

Both NT and ND people are members of the category of human. I don't accept that trans women are members of the category of woman according to the definition of woman that I recognise so again, false equivalence.

MercyMyJewels · 23/03/2017 17:16

There is a sign on the ladies changing room at my gym which says that boys over 8 years need to use the males changing room. It's a recent development, so there clearly has been complaints about older boys being in the ladies' locker room, after their swimming lesson, most likely with their mums.

There is going to be one hell of a shock when hairy arsed males displaying the fully intact equipment start coming in, isn't there?

For all the virtue signallers who 'don't mind', maybe your old mum or granny would. There are certainly a good number of older ladies at my gym who are going get a little more that expected getting ready for Pilates

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 23/03/2017 17:46

I want to go back to that pie meme upthread and say how much it annoys me with its gross oversimplification of a complicated problem.

Now, on one level, I can see what it's getting at - equal pay, for example, isn't a zero sum game - economists have ample evidence to show that more egalitarian societies have higher GDP per head on average, so both women and men do better out of more egalitarian societies.

But not all rights work that way. Sometimes two putative rights are in direct opposition to one another. Take abortion. Either the religious right are correct, and the supposed right to life of the foetus is the most important moral consideration. Or women's rights campaigners are right, and the right of each woman to control over her own body is the most important moral consideration. But there is no way you can make both of them right - either one is or the other, and the two positions are mutually incompatible. When you legislate, you have to make a decision - either you allow abortion, or you do not, but there is no half-way position.

Likewise segregated spaces. If you accept that some spaces, where people are naked and vulnerable, should be segregated for reasons of safety and dignity, then either you believe they should be segregated according to biological sex, or you believe they should be segregated according to self-professed gender. But you cannot have both. Once you legislate to say one group is in the right, the other group have been told their beliefs are wrong. There is no middle ground.

So, no, really, in this case you slice the pie one way, or you slice it the other, but there is no infinitely large amount of pie to go round.

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