To wonder why it's so transphobic here?

[user1490186326]

Really what's the big deal if a transwoman uses the women's toilets or changing rooms - they are women after all!

Can you not possibly imagine how hard it must be to be born into the wrong body? Imagine the pain and distress that must cause?

I have a friend who is a transwoman and she is the kindest most gentle soul you could ever meet so hearing her being referred to as a bloke in a dress or that she has a perverted fetish is just heartbreaking.

Can't we just show a little bit of empathy for these people who have been through so much pain already?

Sorry JRD was supposed to be RJD - Riley J Dennis of the instructional "how to do feminism" videos.

What realities? We are going round in circles. You dismiss any examples which do not fit your argument rather than try to understand how they fit into the bigger picture. It is a sterile debating method.

We're only basing this on our own thought and experiences. You have your thoughts and I have mine, but you're right, we aren't getting far

No, my thoughts include trying to understand others' points of view, even -gasp- if they differ to mine, rather than dismissing them as irelevant, infrequent, etc.

It's revealing that the people you think were being rude in public were women wearing cat hats

Ha. I had no idea. I wasn't really interested in the march in the US. The few images I did see were more like this though.

You arnt really interested in s lot though are you just your own views.

Okay I stand corrected on the hats. Still don't think they we're being rude - just making a statement with wit and resourcefulness.

The few images i saw looked like this

The few images I did see were more like this though.

So? I think the political points were rather more important than worrying about what placards and hats women chose to wear to a protest against misogynistic politics and law.

The self obsessed transactivists getting in on the act to complain it excluded them because they aren't women were just the cherry on the cake.

But to me to believe that there are good trans people who are quiet and don't make a fuss and bad trans activists who give the rest a bad name is the same as the myth of the "good immigrant". It's a way for people to claim they're not against trans people - just against the bad trans people.

RhiWrites Sorry, no. I'm not against trans people and will fight for their rights. I'm not against anybody causing a fuss, we have no right not to be offended. But in my opinion some transactivists (and not all of them are actually trans people) have gone too far in their arguments. See my previous post about the attitude of some transactivists to rape/abuse survivors.

If I have issues caused by abuse dealing with them will be to ensure my safety and my happiness, my duty is to myself first and then my family. I am not personally oppressing trans people by having those issues and quite frankly anyone making the argument that I am is doing nothing but damaging their cause as far as I'm concerned. Is it so hard to understand that if I go to a support group for women survivors of abuse, that having someone who is physically male there could be distressing?

Grrrr! Someone with a penis should not be in a ladies toilet unless they cleaning the toilet or under 8. I had a friend attacked in a ladies toilets.

having the thing is they do know and they don't care.

The don't care about women's rights or issues and this tiny stupid minority just cause problems for the majority of trans women.

Unfortunately it's always the few who spoil it for everyone.

However one weight lifter is one too many.

WoodPigeonInFlight

Okay I stand corrected on the hats.

No, I do. Seems the actual vagina hats were the minority. As I said, I didnt look beyond a headline and first image.

You dismiss any examples which do not fit your argument rather than try to understand how they fit into the bigger picture.

I think I can see the bigger picture, it's just that I think these examples are a very small part of the big picture whereas you think they're much more symptomatic.

Anyway, it's been interesting and whatever you think, I have read yours (and others) posts and taken them on board and will continue to think about them.

Have a good afternoon.

venue

I admire the way you kept addressing me despite being ignored. Guess it's a skill you've learnt throughout your life.

The hats were (pussy) cat hats.

There's a good article about how some transwomen were using a sexual assault support group to practice how to "behave" more like women and mirroring exactly what the women did and said etc in a pretty insensitive way. I'll try to find it when I can or perhaps someone else remembers it?

and you Sans

YANBU. i was about to ask the same question with a poll on how many people here actually know any trans folk personally. Because all debate seems to rely on hysterical headlines. I happen to know several trans women and people transitioning and my experience is that of human beings rather than threats to my freedom. And more urgently, my best friend's son is 17 and in preparation for transitioning and fuck me if he saw any male privilege since he was a child when people adults and kids were busy ostracising him and bullying him for being too feminine/pussy/told to be a man. I did think at the time "Who on earth is teaching kids this stuff?!" so that they drive a child to suicide attempts? Looking at MN trans threads, I'm no longer surprised.

By the way, there are people out there that LOVE how cis women lay into trans women. From an interesting article on Slate: Turning one marginalized group against another—LGBTQ people against Muslims, cis women against trans women—can be an effective way to safeguard systems of power through discrimination.

And finally, when I went to women's march I had a lot of people questioning my and other protesters' motives. Men feeling threatened apparently. This picture was making rounds in the aftermath and it's only fair I bring it up here as there is some special kind of myopic attitude here that doesn't recognise prejudice and fear when faced with it.

Oh no please don't ignore me Sans! Nice goady comments. We see you, we really do. We'll all be waiting with bated breath for your further thoughts, obviously.

Eatpie

Do you understand why it's an issue for many women?

RhiWrites
"There are threads once a week about [transwomen] committing crimes of sexual violence or about children being taught about transgender people. This is always made out to be a huge problem although transpeople are a tiny minority."
You are right, transpeople are a tiny minority. But - they seem to have got the ear of the authorities, so that their effect is disproportionate to their numbers. I think I'm seeing it as 'the new racism'. People in authority were so afraid of being called racists that they failed in their duties, swept things under the carpet lest they be accused of being racists - and we got the Rotherham child abuse scandal. Now, because the activists are so quick to shout 'transphobe', we are seeing the same behaviour by the authorities. They are failing to consider women because being called a sexist doesn't carry the same stigma as being called a transphobe. Nobody ever got no-platformed for being a sexist. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, everybody.)

The threads about the sexual violence - I can't remember if it is 98% of sexual crimes are carried out by men or 98% of perpetrators are men, but either way - these crimes are overwhelmingly male. When committed by a transwoman, it creates several issues.

1. The crime is recorded as being committed by a woman. This skews the statistics, which you might think is pretty minor, but funding etc. follows the numbers. So inaccurate statistics leads to inaccurate official responses.
2. Public perception shifts - 'oh, women are just as bad'. And that is used to justify all manner of misogyny.
3. The transwoman must be jailed somewhere. Huge impact on the female prisons, both inmates and staff.

So far the authorities are sweeping these issues under the carpet, but they should be addressed.

Threads about children being taught about transgender people - the problem is again, the authorities are being craven. The package of information schools are being told to use is not impartial, and as was highlighted in one such thread, is basically telling schoolgirls that it's all their fault if the transgirl gets beaten up by the boys because they didn't want the transgirl in their changing room (no - it's the fault of the boys and the school itself for not providing suitable facilities). Essentially, socialising/grooming girls to ignore their own boundaries because it's not nice to have boundaries. This is going to cause these girls real problems in later life, as they will by adulthood have no ability to enforce any boundaries with anyone.

"In posting this I'm aware that most posters on this thread disagree. But to me to believe that there are good trans people who are quiet and don't make a fuss and bad trans activists who give the rest a bad name is the same as the myth of the "good immigrant". It's a way for people to claim they're not against trans people - just against the bad trans people."
I get what you're saying, and it's a tricky one. But the fact remains that there are good people and bad people in every group you can think off. And there are agent provocateurs, who aren't actually part of that group but who move amongst it and against it according to their own agenda. There have been transactivists who have withdrawn from the fray (Miranda Yardley) because she's so wearied by the constant barrage of attacks on her by what you would term the bad transactivists. Its not as simple as 'good quiet transpeople' and 'bad noisy transactivists'. And certainly some activism is absolutely needed to ensure that the needs of transpeople are acknowledged and met. But - some activists have chosen to trample on women's rights and I believe it is right to push back against these activists.

Well seeing I can witter on for England. Sorry, that was a very long response Rhi, I hope you hung in there. I'm just trying to explain that what at first seemed to me to be a 'what's the problem, live and let live' scenario has, on scratching the surface, raised some rather concerning questions for me. And I really feel that the best way to deal with them is to picke them up, look at them from every angle, discuss them with people who see them in different ways, and try to find answers. Your input is just as important as anyone else's to this matter.

eatpie yes I know several transwomen. None of them spout the nonsense I mentioned above.

The package of information schools are being told to use is not impartial,

It's been influenced by aggressive lobbying groups made up of people who don't give a single fuck about the rights or feelings of women and girls.

eat yes I too know a trans woman and my cousin is a gay man so please don't be an idiott. Most of us are middle aged women not wet behind the ears kids and have lived lives so don't need you to educate us.

By the way please stop with the cis it's such a twatty expression. I am s woman I don't know about you.

Let's not start using the word "cis" to pander to people.

Zero tolerance of the idea of women being a subcategory of a larger category which includes males. "Cis" is bollocks.

Yes, we're all humans. No we aren't all women. Words mean things.

"Women ... who express concern on trans issues and their effect on women tend to focus on specific issues. Those on the other of the debate, such as yourself, tend look to generalities- its the main reason these debates go round in circles."
Good point. I'd also add that the specific issues arise because the generalities have been too superficial. No rigour of thought. As if someone built a house and didn't put a lock on the door, because surely no-one would be so disrespectful as to try to enter where they shouldn't? As if everyone was perfect and there is nobody who would think 'fuck the lot of you, I'm having that'. Like Miller's Gender Identity Bill - yeah, sure Maria - no bloke is going to lie and say they feel like a woman, when there's no requirement that they live or even present as a woman and should they be caught for anything later, the authorities will be obliged to place them in a women's prison. Nope, nobody ever lies.