wedding, hen do, transgender

[user1488971792]

Hi I'm after some advice.
I am getting married and just organising the hen do. Im in a bit of a predicament. My cousin (who is quite a bit older then me not that thats really relevant i suppose) is transgender- male to female. All the family have been very accepting and we would rather see her happy then living a lie and she is aware this is how we feel. This isn't a new thing and we have known about her becoming transgender for 2-3 years now.
now the difficult part!! Im organising a hen do, nothing wild, just an overnight stay, spa that sort of thing. its obviously all women, but i don't know whether to invite cousin or not. If it had of been a night out it wouldnt be an issue as i would have just invited her. However, we are all staying in a house together with a hot tub, she is in a relationship with a women and hasn't had any surgery so still 'male' physically. There will be young girls there who i know won't feel comfortable with a 'man.' i think it would be different if she had had surgery, i don't know why? if i don't invite her it will be awkward and i know she won't want to go on the stag do which i completely understand. I am yet to mention anything about the issue at all as i genuinely don't know what to do and dont want to hurt feelings etc any advice on how to handle this issue sensitively ?

Italiangreyhound:

The woman is welcome to move carriages. However, my example is more similar to the hen do scenario than you think. A hen do is traditionally all female. There is no rule or law that says it has to be. Hence, any expectation that there will be no men there is no more than an expectation. It does not mean she can insist on men not attending.

nauticant:

I do. Both are examples of situations where a woman who has experienced violence at male hands may find herself exposed to me company, and may choose to withdraw from the situation, but has no right to insist that men are removed from it.

Obviously with a trans woman that also applies, if the woman sees that person as male.

*male company

I am terribly sorry that such an awful thing was done to you. Please don't doubt that. But if my dad, brother or DH got on a train and you insisted that they get off so you felt comfortable, I could not support that. It wouldn't be right, as they didn't assault you.

Yeah because that's dead realistic isn't it? Yup being sexually assaulted on a train gave me the confidence to insist that men get off trains! And I was listened to! Innocent lovely men chucked off trains all the time! You are quite right to not support that sort of thing!! Thank god you are here to stop sexually assaulted teen girls from being encouraged to throw men of trains. Lovely ones!!

Beachcomber I am so sorry this happened to you. You do not need to reply but do you generally ask males to leave a carriage on a train because of this?

But have to agree trifle that you are either coming across goady or single minded. No, we are not all single minded. I am no single minded about these trans issues. I've signed petitions and posted support for trans women on my Facebook page in real life and I know trans people and address them politely. I'm not try to re-define language here as you see to be single mindely doing.

I've seen you not being single mined before and agreed with you sometimes. but in this you seem so set in misrepresenting the English language, why?

"You can expect what you like. It doesn't make it just for you to get it."

Realisically a hen do is females, it's in the name. If it was for males it would be called, I don't know, a stag do!

If it was for males and females it would be called a Hag or maybe a cock and hen or I know not what.

But I do know what a hen do is. And I think you do too.

Just because you chose to do your one differently, it doesn't mean you do not know what we are talking about! I am not going to define it for you again, you can look on dictionary on line if you are confused about hen dos!

Italiangreyhound:

I don't intend to come across in that way. I just find these arguments so obviously flawed and unreasonable that it seems natural for me to say so.

Thank god Universitychallenging is here too to prevent me chucking men off trains!!!

I'm so glad you got the point.

It's rife you know! Nice boys and men being thrown off trains! Don't support it whatever you do, it will only encourage other girls and women to join in this cruel victimization of men and boys. It happens all the time.

FFS

Why should a man who has done nothing be put off a train?

Beachcomber:

With respect, I am not the one who mentioned trains or lifts. That was you. But you conflated the issue of a woman choosing to remove herself from a train or lift, with the totally different issue of a man being excluded from a social situation. These things are different, because in the first scenario he is unaffected. but in the second he is penalised for something he was not responsible for.

Well that was a massive cross post.

Unsurprisingly, Beachcomber has not been throwing men of trains and also unsurprisingly, Trifle knows exactly what a hen do is.

Trifle your lack of empathy is staggering. I know you like to argue a bit, I've engaged with you a few times before but this is a real low. You are being obtuse, confusing issues and setting up false strawmen.

I think I'm cutting out for now. The level of need to bow down and accommodate men generally is a bit too high for me but the level of empathy for victims of male violence is just intolerably low. No wonder we get dominated so easily by men, we seem to lack the camaraderie they have.

Beachcomber [hugs]

OP do what you want. But I do hope look after your friend; AND have a great day.

University no man has been put off a train, put your straw man away!

Italiangreyhound:

I can't agree that that is what is happening here. Read it again if you like.

I didn't bring the man on the Train into,the debate. beachcomber did. [confised]

This is turning into a comedy double act. Morecombe and Wise springs from to mind for some reason.

Trifle I am going to assume you are not aware how offensive this is coming across and I am going to cut out now. I have no desire to read all this again.

Beachcomber I am so sorry this happened to you. You do not need to reply but do you generally ask males to leave a carriage on a train because of this.

Thanks Italiangreyhound. No I never insisted any man get off a train.

I'm now an adult woman in my 40s and I'm fine. But I won't ever forget how it made me feel and what I learnt. Which is that some men will attack you or invade you simply because they want to and they can. And they don't carry a sign letting you know which sort of man they are.

People actually found the entitled creep on the tube who was spreading his legs wide on to mine, rubbing himself against me funny. Folk were watching in amusement.

Bambambini "This is turning into a comedy double act. Morecombe and Wise springs from to mind for some reason."

I'm sorry if I have contributed to this.

Trifle I am not attacking you personally. At least I am not intending to.

Maybe if we (as a society, not you personally) began from the position of how we could help victims of violence, rather than how men should automatically get to go everywhere, even in places where we would not expect them, then we would find ourselves being a lot more sympathetic to women who have been victims of men.

It is the insistence of some women to say how nice and lovely some men are and how their presence in women only spaces should not be a problem that effectively acts to shut other women up. That's what I take from this discussion. That excluding men is wrong, because if they want to be there they should be there, whereever there is. Of course for most places that will be true but I would like to see more and more places where men are not.

Bambambini

The amusing thing for me is someone using a train analogy to derail a discussion.

Look, I'm going to step out now too. I have no desire to upset any victim of violence.

Beachcomber - something very similar happened to me on a bus in Rome when I was about 20. It's really horrible and I am definitely still nervous around men on public transport.

So women are not allowed to say that they don't want men near them as they find it triggering/traumatic as they have been sexually abused by men but transwomen are allowed to insist that women call them women and must not be uncomfortable in any way as they find it triggering/traumatic if anyone sees them as male in any way despite having a penis.

splendide

It's the realisation that it is so easy for a man who is so inclined to do something like that. I know it is common and I'm sorry it happened to you too.

Yes it was very easy and then he laughed with his friend at my upset reaction and then for good measure they made pig noises as I tearfully left the bus. No consequences for him at all.