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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

wedding, hen do, transgender

750 replies

user1488971792 · 21/03/2017 17:11

Hi I'm after some advice.
I am getting married and just organising the hen do. Im in a bit of a predicament. My cousin (who is quite a bit older then me not that thats really relevant i suppose) is transgender- male to female. All the family have been very accepting and we would rather see her happy then living a lie and she is aware this is how we feel. This isn't a new thing and we have known about her becoming transgender for 2-3 years now.
now the difficult part!! Im organising a hen do, nothing wild, just an overnight stay, spa that sort of thing. its obviously all women, but i don't know whether to invite cousin or not. If it had of been a night out it wouldnt be an issue as i would have just invited her. However, we are all staying in a house together with a hot tub, she is in a relationship with a women and hasn't had any surgery so still 'male' physically. There will be young girls there who i know won't feel comfortable with a 'man.' i think it would be different if she had had surgery, i don't know why? if i don't invite her it will be awkward and i know she won't want to go on the stag do which i completely understand. I am yet to mention anything about the issue at all as i genuinely don't know what to do and dont want to hurt feelings etc any advice on how to handle this issue sensitively ?

OP posts:
MadMags · 22/03/2017 10:56

Trifle, you've been facetious about the MH of the abuse victim in this scenario.

Don't be the pot calling the kettle dismissive.

VeryBitchyRestingFace · 22/03/2017 11:00

People worth 'every sympathy' don't sound like you do.

That doesn't make sense. It's people with gender dysphoria who are worthy of sympathy, not me.

It's not a laughing matter, and you sound like you think it is.

I assure you I don't think the issue of adult males encroaching on women's rights/spaces is a laughing matter.

Some of the posts defending this position are, however, beyond farce.

Batteriesallgone · 22/03/2017 11:03

But surely Trifle the mental health of the trans person is their own issue and it's not up to anyone else to validate it or care about it? Unless you're saying trans people deserve the care and understanding of others but abuse survivors don't?

Trifleorbust · 22/03/2017 11:06

Batteriesallgone:

Nice convulsion of logic Hmm

Neither has the right to exclude the other to safeguard their own mental health. Neither should be forced to be present in the situation. That is the long and short of it.

Trifleorbust · 22/03/2017 11:07

VeryBitchyRestingFace:

'Worth' was a typo. Please read my post correcting the typo: people 'with' sympathy do not sound like you.

Trifleorbust · 22/03/2017 11:07

MadMags:

I was not remotely facetious, nor would I ever make light of someone's trauma in that way.

Italiangreyhound · 22/03/2017 11:09

Trifle you can of course invite to your hen whomever you choose. But another poster was talking about the law and I am talking about language. There is a linguistic expectation a hen do is women.

Italiangreyhound · 22/03/2017 11:10

By the by we had a Hag do, Hen and Stag!

Italiangreyhound · 22/03/2017 11:11

Universitychallenging
"And thirdly, and most importantly, it doesn't matter what kind of risky behaviour I or anyone engaged it, the only person to blame for a rape is a rapist. This part of the post is victim blaming."

100% agree, I am so sad that anyone would wish to blame a victim in this way. Thanks

VeryBitchyRestingFace · 22/03/2017 11:11

'Worth' was a typo. Please read my post correcting the typo: people 'with' sympathy do not sound like you.

Ok, that's your view. I have explained that I was responding to the absurdity of a PP's reasoning.

You obv don't accept that. No biggie.

Universitychallenging · 22/03/2017 11:12

I don't think there is a linguistic expectation of a hen do being all women. (Or a stag being all men). The very few I've been on recently - in the last 2 years (two female cousins one male cousin and my brother) most were mixed. Only one - a female friend - was female only.

Trifleorbust · 22/03/2017 11:12

Italiangreyhound:

But what is the relevance of that? Plenty of men attend hen dos.

Trifleorbust · 22/03/2017 11:13

Italiangreyhound:

But what is the relevance of that? Plenty of men attend hen dos.

Italiangreyhound · 22/03/2017 11:22

Trifleorbust "Italiangreyhound; Has that poster actually said a single thing which you would describe as 'accepting' though? confused

There is NOTHING 'accepting' about snide name-calling, othering, excluding and isolating a person because of their needs."

I am not sure what you are refering to?

I squoted someone else saying "We can be accepting without having to put them at the centre of everything." because I agree.

I accept trans women, I call them she and their prefered name, I want them to have protection in the law like all people, job protection, like all people etc etc. But I don't have to believe everything they say about themselves.

I'm agreeing with that quote from that poster not everything that poster has said or written. I'm not sure what you mean by "excluding and isolating a person because of their needs." Either.

MadMags · 22/03/2017 11:23

Trifle you absolutely did make light of the victim's trauma and her feelings surrounding it.

Trifleorbust · 22/03/2017 11:24

Italian:

I know, but in the context, what that person said and the way that person behaves (judging by her posts) are very different things. By agreeing with her, you may be validating her.

Italiangreyhound · 22/03/2017 11:25

The relevance is that one poster, not you, was suggesting there was no legal definition of a hen do. There is not. There is a linguistic one. If you or anyone wishes not to not stick to that, good on you.

But for random women attending random hen dos there is an expectation it is women only because that is what the term means!

This is exactly why the whole trans thing is so frustrating, you have to keep stating and restating what things mean and people want to change the meaning.

Meaning of words change over time by consensus, not because one or two people choose to use a different meaning for a word.

Italiangreyhound · 22/03/2017 11:27

Trifle as I just explained I am not agreeing with everything a previous poster wrot!

I am agreeing with the one thing I quoted.

This should be very obvious to any because most of us don't know all the things another poster says let alone agree with them. AND I just said as much!

Trifleorbust · 22/03/2017 11:27

excluding and isolating a person because of their needs

I think that's self-explanatory. Saying someone can't attend a party because they (in your view) believe themselves female when they are male, rather than because they, hurt someone, is disgusting.

Trifleorbust · 22/03/2017 11:28

Italian: Fair enough.

Trifleorbust · 22/03/2017 11:30

But for random women attending random hen dos there is an expectation it is women only because that is what the term means!

So what? If an expectation is wrong, correct it. Why does it matter?

Italiangreyhound · 22/03/2017 11:30

Custard I am very glad that the other poster helped you see that it is not about thinking all men are going to do bad, I don't think that. But I also don't think I should need to see any naked male genitalia, unless I want to.

You were raised in a home where nudity was frequent, and there wasn't really an insistence on privacy.

Do you not understand the current concern about women sharing spaces with biological males, whatever they identify as?

I was not raised in that sort of home and I am very uncomfortable with mixed sex-nudity, to the point that knowing naked men would be walking about with their penis hanging out would stop me going somewhere.

So the fair thing to do is you and people like you who are comfortable with that, have that in your own homes and in any spaces specially designated such, nudist beach etc, and let the rest of us have our single sex spaces which are in no way reliant on how someone identifies.

LoveDeathPrizes · 22/03/2017 11:35

This is a huge question but I suppose it's your Hen do and your choice. You want people there that you like and feel happy with, regardless of their biology.

I don't suppose your cousin would want to be there with a frosty reception from your other guests either.

Italiangreyhound · 22/03/2017 11:36

Trifle are you saying this 40 something person needs to go to a party?

"I think that's self-explanatory."

I don't. ANY man could say he needs to be around women, he likes them, loves them, associates with them, doesn't like men, doesn't like their company. So any man could argue that the female only book group, or school, or swim club should be open to him.

But if I as a white woman wanted to crash the local Pakistani women's association or take part in the local transgender swimming club, I would not be welcome (I would expect) and of course, I would not attempt to join such a group. My presence in the group, expecting to have things explained to me, expecting to do as I pleased as a non-Pakistani, or non-trans person, may well cause difficulties for the others in the group.

Not inviting or including everyone in everything is our right as individuals. It's not the right of companies or universities etc to turn away people because they are Pakistani or trans or white or whatever. But within social and friendship groups we can choose parameters.

As I said before if a forty something mum or aunt wished to come to a young person's hens' do, or the future MIL, we would not expect the bride-to-be to include them even if not doing so caused offence!

LoveDeathPrizes · 22/03/2017 11:36

I almost think the Hen Do aspect is a red herring and complicating matters. It's irrelevant. Plenty of people have mixed gender Hen and Stags these days. (Not implying that having your cousin there would mean it was mixed gender, just making the point that you shouldn't let that complicate the issue any further)