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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

wedding, hen do, transgender

750 replies

user1488971792 · 21/03/2017 17:11

Hi I'm after some advice.
I am getting married and just organising the hen do. Im in a bit of a predicament. My cousin (who is quite a bit older then me not that thats really relevant i suppose) is transgender- male to female. All the family have been very accepting and we would rather see her happy then living a lie and she is aware this is how we feel. This isn't a new thing and we have known about her becoming transgender for 2-3 years now.
now the difficult part!! Im organising a hen do, nothing wild, just an overnight stay, spa that sort of thing. its obviously all women, but i don't know whether to invite cousin or not. If it had of been a night out it wouldnt be an issue as i would have just invited her. However, we are all staying in a house together with a hot tub, she is in a relationship with a women and hasn't had any surgery so still 'male' physically. There will be young girls there who i know won't feel comfortable with a 'man.' i think it would be different if she had had surgery, i don't know why? if i don't invite her it will be awkward and i know she won't want to go on the stag do which i completely understand. I am yet to mention anything about the issue at all as i genuinely don't know what to do and dont want to hurt feelings etc any advice on how to handle this issue sensitively ?

OP posts:
Original poster
user1488971792 · 22/03/2017 14:20

Thanks everyone. I think what a previous poster said about the fact is, that if my cousin was still 'male' and hadn't transitioned then she wouldnt be invited as its a female only thing, hence why my fiancé is having a stag do. I have been to mixed hen do's before but have always known about it. I have gay friends who i wont be inviting and am close to because again, its traditionally women only, not because i don't love them or don't think of them as friends. Thanks for all your input.

OP posts:
CoteDAzur · 22/03/2017 14:27

"What if you're a woman and don't have eggs? Not a woman then?"

First time on a trans thread? Smile

Dictionaries define Female as OF the sex that CAN make eggs or bear young. A woman without eggs and/or can't have children is still OF the sex that CAN make eggs & bear young. She is still NOT OF the sex that CAN make sperm.

Most of this debate hinges on dictionary definitions. Get one.

Batteriesallgone · 22/03/2017 14:34

Yup beachcomber and if they've been abused, they definitely shouldn't dare to 'impose' on their close friends by saying that the presence of men makes them uncomfortable. Nope they should just remove themselves from situations.

In fact never leave the house. Until they've dealt with it Hmm

LucyAutumn · 22/03/2017 14:54

One of my best friends is gay (male) and he came to ALL of my hen party, which also involved a hot tub, and my female friends were all fine with it.

Alternatively, my sister can be a bit of a drama queen so I arranged a separate thing to do with her and my mum at the beginning of the weekend.

TheBogQueen · 22/03/2017 15:04

I think the experience of choosing not to have children or being physically unable to bear children when you are primed to do this by your biology is a female experience.

Trifleorbust · 22/03/2017 15:08

Batteriesallgone:

They can say the presence of men makes them feel uncomfortable. As much as I feel for someone who feels this way, my dad, brother, DH, male friends, other male relatives didn't rape them and it is prejudiced for anyone to pretend they share responsibility by virtue of having a penis, so no, they can't insist on there being no men present.

Beachcomber · 22/03/2017 15:31

That's the spirit Batteriesallgone!

it is prejudiced for anyone to pretend they share responsibility by virtue of having a penis

That isn't actually what women traumatized by sexual violence do is it though? They aren't "pretending" that your good old dad and lovely brother are responsible for their having been subject to male violence. And it's dreadful to suggest that they are and that they are "prejudiced". Ugh.

Male violence is a thing. And it is not a rare thing. You having nice male relatives does not magic that away and it does jack shit to reduce the trauma of women who have been harmed by it.

Trifleorbust · 22/03/2017 15:35

Beachcomber:

Women have not been harmed by my male relatives.

Trifleorbust · 22/03/2017 15:35

And it is definitely prejudiced to treat my male relatives in a manner which suggests they have/are likely to harm women.

Universitychallenging · 22/03/2017 15:36

Agree with trifle.

VestalVirgin · 22/03/2017 15:55

In fact never leave the house. Until they've dealt with it

I wonder whether the people here who are of the opinion that traumatized women should have no social life are also willing to pay for them staying at home. I mean, it is a bit hard to hold a job when one never leaves the house ...

It is interesting, isn't it - if a woman suffers from PTSD because a male sexually assaulted her, then she must stay at home and be ashamed of her very reasonable discomfort around males.

But if a male suffers from sex dysphoria (and that's me being generous, many of the late transitioners don't) then that person's feelings must be pampered and everyone must play along with the play pretend game.

Why, exactly?

I'd not even force my presence on a dog that has been mistreated by a person who looks like me.
Not because it is my fault that some people mistreat dogs, but because I am a nice person.

Batteriesallgone · 22/03/2017 15:56

Ah yes. That old thorny issue of abuse survivors being prejudiced. Poor men I don't know how they cope Hmm

noeffingidea · 22/03/2017 15:56

What was the point of this thread? It's like asking for advice on how to wipe your own arse.
You're organising an event, you make sure it's suitable for all your guests. There was no need to bring either your cousin's 'trans status' or your friends history of abuse into it. Just organise something safe and neutral for everyone, something like a meal out or a club night. If you want to have a hot tub night then make sure beforehand that all your guests are comfortable with it.

Beachcomber · 22/03/2017 16:08

Really?

I was sexually assaulted with penetration on a crowded train when I was a young teen. A man shoved his hand so hard between my legs that his fingers penetrated my vagina through my underwear. For years afterwards I was nervous on trains, in crowds and in any busy confined space with men I didn't know.

If one of your nice male relatives stood next to me on a train or got into a lift with me they would have made me anxious. Because I have no way of knowing that they are nice. Let's not blame women who have been subject to male violence for their fear of men. Let's blame the men who commit violence against girls and women for giving us reason to fear.

The nice men in my life get this.

Bambambini · 22/03/2017 16:11

"Women have not been harmed by my male relatives."

That you know of - you have no idea what your family and friends might have done.,.

Trifleorbust · 22/03/2017 16:13

Beachcomber:

And I am terribly sorry that such an awful thing was done to you. Please don't doubt that. But if my dad, brother or DH got on a train and you insisted that they get off so you felt comfortable, I could not support that. It wouldn't be right, as they didn't assault you.

Italiangreyhound · 22/03/2017 16:13

It isn't prejudiced not to want to be around men FFS. It is perfectly OK not to want to be around if that is what you want.

Since men, lovely or otherwise, dominate almost every zone in the world women just have to put up with it. But in places where women expect there to be no men, e.g. female only zones, or the vast majority of hen dos then it is not unusual to expect there not to be men.

"Why, exactly?" You know Vestal I think it is because they are men, and they take centre stage and we are socialized from the word go to put those men centre stage. I've seen two discussions in my whole life about where trans men are or are not welcomed, one was a barber shop the other a naked yoga event for men. I've seen and read many, many articles about where trans women would like to go etc etc.

"I'd not even force my presence on a dog that has been mistreated by a person who looks like me.
Not because it is my fault that some people mistreat dogs, but because I am a nice person."

This is so very true, I do think the pecking order goes males, animals, females!

Universitychallenging · 22/03/2017 16:14

Beachcomber that is a terrible thing to have happened to you Flowers

But I wouldn't support you,in asking my son to leave a train because you felt uncomfortable. That wouldn't be right.

My son and my DP have not sexually assaulted anyone.

And to infer that they might have and I just don't know is really an awful thing to say.

Trifleorbust · 22/03/2017 16:16

Bambambini:

Hmm

Yes, for clarity, that I know of my male relatives haven't raped, assaulted or hurt any women.

Bambambini · 22/03/2017 16:16

"They can say the presence of men makes them feel uncomfortable. As much as I feel for someone who feels this way, my dad, brother, DH, male friends, other male relatives didn't rape them and it is prejudiced for anyone to pretend they share responsibility by virtue of having a penis, so no, they can't insist on there being no men present."

We are talking about a hen do being organised for females. The op's friend isn't demanding anything but I don't think she's being unreasonable to expect that at a female hen do -there will be females.

You're really coming across weirdly single minded with this nonsense - or goady.

Trifleorbust · 22/03/2017 16:17

Italiangreyhound:

You can expect what you like. It doesn't make it just for you to get it.

Trifleorbust · 22/03/2017 16:18

Bambambini:

You can leave the personal attacks aside, actually. I am no more 'single minded' about this issue than the people who continually post hateful nonsense about men and trans women on these interminable threads, and I would argue less so.

Italiangreyhound · 22/03/2017 16:19

But trifle "But if my dad, brother or DH got on a train and you insisted that they get off so you felt comfortable..." This is just not what is happening is it. It simply is not. The women would most likely move carriage. How would a woman insist men move carriage? Really!

So the woman would move and when she told that 'story' of her moving some man or even some woman would accuse her of being prejudiced! What a fucking laugh. Only it is not, it is deadly serious and I expect many women end up moving up and down platforms and trains etc (as I used to do when I worked in London) even if they have not been assaulted because they have a natural of caution of men for very good reasons.

Do you see the difference Trifle this was why many of us wanted to explain that hen dos are normally all female, even if your hen or whatever do, was not. I had two, a hen do for both and mixed hag for all our friends. My dh to be did not have a stag do, as far as I can recall.

VanillaBaby · 22/03/2017 16:21

Not read the whole thread but if she's a friend and someone you care about and genuinely don't have a problem with, why would you choose an activity that actively excludes her? Doesn't seem a very nice thing to do if you say you get on with her and don't have a problem with the transgender issue.
Either invite her to your spa thing, or do another hen do that happily includes everyone!

nauticant · 22/03/2017 16:24

Does anyone think public transport such as a train and a hen do in a private setting are remotely comparable in the context of this discussion?

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