wedding, hen do, transgender

[user1488971792]

Hi I'm after some advice.
I am getting married and just organising the hen do. Im in a bit of a predicament. My cousin (who is quite a bit older then me not that thats really relevant i suppose) is transgender- male to female. All the family have been very accepting and we would rather see her happy then living a lie and she is aware this is how we feel. This isn't a new thing and we have known about her becoming transgender for 2-3 years now.
now the difficult part!! Im organising a hen do, nothing wild, just an overnight stay, spa that sort of thing. its obviously all women, but i don't know whether to invite cousin or not. If it had of been a night out it wouldnt be an issue as i would have just invited her. However, we are all staying in a house together with a hot tub, she is in a relationship with a women and hasn't had any surgery so still 'male' physically. There will be young girls there who i know won't feel comfortable with a 'man.' i think it would be different if she had had surgery, i don't know why? if i don't invite her it will be awkward and i know she won't want to go on the stag do which i completely understand. I am yet to mention anything about the issue at all as i genuinely don't know what to do and dont want to hurt feelings etc any advice on how to handle this issue sensitively ?

I almost think the Hen Do aspect is a red herring and complicating matters. It's irrelevant. Plenty of people have mixed gender Hen and Stags these days. (Not implying that having your cousin there would mean it was mixed gender, just making the point that you shouldn't let that complicate the issue any further)

Custard I am very glad that the other poster helped you see that it is not about thinking all men are going to do bad, I don't think that. But I also don't think I should need to see any naked male genitalia, unless I want to.

I know this wasn't addressed to me but... I quite agree. No-one should HAVE to see someone else naked. If I was planning a trip to a naturists' beach, for example, and someone didn't want to come because they didn't want to look at willies, I would quite understand. What I would not understand is that person thinking they had the right to make everyone else cover up or leave so they could join in. That would not be reasonable. Even if that person was operating from the most understandable of positions (they were a rape or abuse survivor, say) it still would not be reasonable.

Italian:

No, I am not saying they need to go to a party. I am saying no-one has a right to insist that they don't go (other than the host, who can decide on the guest list) because that person is in possession of a penis. Anyone who has a problem with them can, instead, choose not to go. That is the simple principle of equal rights in action - if you don't like the conditions of the party, do not attend.

Do you not understand the current concern about women sharing spaces with biological males, whatever they identify as?

Of course I understand that. I think you've read my post as a critical antagonistic one, and it's not meant to be. I absolutely understand about women-only spaces, both legally defined 'safe spaces' and also women's lavatories etc. I don't really want to share a loo with random men. But I also don't want to be part of a kind of panic.

It's just that I don't want this to turn into "Eeek a penis!" - I was thinking out loud about the middle ground between sensible openness about human bodies, and a kind of USA evangelical Christian prudery.

Because I'm pretty much in tune with the radical feminist line on this: as Germaine Greer says, just cutting of a penis doesn't turn a man into a woman. It's what Jenni Murray also says. Of course, one is polite and treats people as they wish to be treated (as Prof. Greer & Ms Murray also said), but there's a whole lifetime of masculine socialisation in a transwoman.

I don't think we're in disagreement. I just don't want these conversations to turn into a kind of prudery about human bodies.

I also posted waaay upthread that a transwoman, only 3 years transitioned, could well (she might not) change the dynamic of a woman-only hen do.

I think the OP is in a tricky position. If it were a female cousin she just didn't like, would she invite her? I suspect not.

The point has been made over and over that the abuse victim is closer to and more important to the hen. It makes no sense not to prioritise her.

Either the trans person agrees to be understanding or they don't go. They aren't the most important person at the party and should recognise that.

It matters because i don't think this particular OP would have invited her cousin if the cousin had not transitioned and was not presenting as a woman. So whatever a hen do means these days, the OP is thinking of a traditional hen do, involving the expectation of women only being there.

There's no rule that you have to serve turkey and exchange presents at Christmas, but if I'm going to serve pizza and not have presents, I inform guests of both things so they can decide if it's something they want to do. Culture and tradition don't have to be traps but they do exist and it's pointless to pretend that nothing means anything and nobody can use any heuristic at all to predict any situation.

annandale: But that is her decision. It's not wrong to decide that if, as she says she does, she accepts her cousin as a woman, she is inviting her to her party.

Batteries: That is the OP's call. I now discussing the principles involved.

Custard "I think you've read my post as a critical antagonistic one, and it's not meant to be" No not at all. My post to you was a bit abrupt, it was not intended to be.

"I just don't want these conversations to turn into a kind of prudery about human bodies." I know and I see that. But I also feel for me I do want to be a bit prudey about bodies because I think that is what I expect in public swim places etc. But in private spaces people decide. If the OP invites her cousin she will need to tell the others.

Trifle we agree on who gets to invite, the host.

"What I would not understand is that person thinking they had the right to make everyone else cover up or leave so they could join in."
Depends where they are, nudist beach, no right to make people cover up, normal swimming pool or hot tub etc there should be rules about what to wear and in changing rooms spaces for males or females or family units or whatever.

(Trifle, custard I feel like I am in Waitrose!)

trifle: and it's not wrong to wonder if every woman she invites will feel comfortable with someone physically male in a hot tub. Hence suggesting inviting everyone but doing something else.

I totally agree with Batteriesallgone "The point has been made over and over that the abuse victim is closer to and more important to the hen. It makes no sense not to prioritise her."

annandale and so agree too with this... "It matters because i don't think this particular OP would have invited her cousin if the cousin had not transitioned and was not presenting as a woman. So whatever a hen do means these days, the OP is thinking of a traditional hen do, involving the expectation of women only being there."

"... it's pointless to pretend that nothing means anything and nobody can use any heuristic at all to predict any situation." Totally agree, (after looking up word heuristic!)

Oh good Italian [trifle custard] see what I did there I didn't think we were disagreeing so much as coming to the general question with different experiences.

I just worry that the genuine feminist gendercritical point of view can get mixed up with a very prudish anti-bodies, anti-sex - also anti-feminist - right-wing conservative views. Because that is also disaster for women ...

Late to the thread.

Transgender........... mhm........... I don't believe in it it's total nonsense.
Transsexual is fine, people wanting to change their genitals in order to become the other sex, if they feel the desperate urge.

TransGender????? Naaaaa..... gender is bullshit. I am a woman, I don't wear skirts or make up, not into gossipy sharing of cosmopolitan (drink nor mag). But hey, I am a woman, see, I gave birth, breastfed and was a woman before that because I have eggs and a vagina.

That's it. Eggs & vag = woman

gender is horse shit, know what I mean?

What if you're a woman and don't have eggs? Not a woman then?

"I am not sure why some one would deliberately use 'he' to a transwoman. Sometimes people make mistakes but why would someone deliberately use 'he'?"

Because some feel that trans ideology and the laws the activists are campaigning for is harmful to women/girls/children. They've come to see that being nice and accepting years ago has lead to everything they believe about sex/gender being turned upside down till we are being forced to belelieve and accept untruths and are being forced to use the language to back it up.

Now we have male rapists being housed in women's prisons, women being kicked out a refuge for not wanting to share a room with a male, women feeling bullied by these males (and other women) into staying quiet about their concerns, school girls being bullied and called bigots for not wanting to share changing rooms/showers with males. Crimes from violent males being classed and reported as women's crimes.

It's led to a male pushing women out of the national squad in weightlifting and breakibg their records - more and more similar cases coming.

Forcing us to use the words and pronouns feels like forcing us to accept and collude in all this harmful lies and bullying. It's the ultimate gaslighting.

"What if you're a woman and don't have eggs? Not a woman then?"

Abnormal ovarian development in humans with XX chromosomes.

I'd appreciate if men didn't try to define what I am, or what makes me a woman, ta ever.

What if you're a woman and don't have eggs? Not a woman then?

What if you're a human being with no legs? Not a human being then?

Some ppl don't have legs. Doesn't change the fact that humans are a bipedal species.

I wonder how many men would like to be female in developing countries where women's rights aren't awfully established.

My guess is that men who say they are female either get aroused by the thought (refuse to support that sort of nonsense) or refuse to identify with today's stereotypical ideas of what being a man is about.

So either kink or gender stereotyping that is entrenched in society.

A female is a female. men can never be female. They can dress in garments conventionally associated with women.

I don't think the sharing bedrooms/bathrooms matters so much - surely people do this with male friends and it's fine? I know I do.

I guess what matters is if this is supposed to be an all female event or not. Your cousin isn't female. She might identify as a woman (which is fine I guess) but she isn't one.

Heron I don't share bathrooms and bedrooms with male friends at the same time. What people chose to do at home is up to them.

Of course not everyone shares bedrooms and bathrooms with male friends. I would say about half my friendship group would be comfortable with that, the other half would not. I have attended a mixed sex 'hag' - all the guests were informed it was mixed sex. Would have been v uncomfortable if I hadn't been prewarned and just expected to be cool with it.

Female is "of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes."

It doesn't mean one will be able to do so. I don't have eggs anymore and it was a minor miracle I managed to carry one baby to term. But I am of the sex that can do that.

Totally agree with Bambambini I went along with all the trans things, signed petitions etc because I believe in freedom for everyone. It was only later I realized trans women's rights are coming at the cost of women. You only need to see the posters of trans women marching and moaning about women's concerns for female bodies to see we rarely share the same issues or concerns.

And i don't think that it's generally the done thing for women to share rooms with male friends. Though here we are talking about women/girls sharing with a male they don't necessarily know, a male who thinks he is a woman and is attracted to women at that - not a close trusted male friend.

So wecare beingtold this is all normal and common, just like hen dos aren't generally

regarded as an event for women.

Who is rewritting this stuff and why?

I've had a brainwave.

Women should just stop having female gatherings. Then this thorny problem simply won't arise.

Indeed Beachcomber and all the things we thought were secure, as most likely not.