To be fucking furious this is happening to women's sports

[Bambambini]

For all those who think trans politics doesn't affect you or your daughters - please read this article of a male forcing women out of their sport and the authorities are letting this happen. If you don't give a shiney shit about this incident - what exactly will it take for you to sit up and take notice and start saying enough.

m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11821399

People with Downs don't compete in the Paralympics so it's a moot point.

There definitely isn't a 100m DS race at the paralympics.

Morphene, you say 800m wc racing is an acceptable sport in your world, so would you allow able bodied competitors in it?

The question of whether competitive sport exists at all is irrelevant and a massive derail. There always seems to be one or two posters who turn up and object to all sport, or to separate categories within sports. It's not a mainstream view and is not going to ever actually happen. Their opinions on the point of sport and women's participation in it have nothing to do with what's being discussed.

How can sporting organizations be encouraged to look at the advantages male-bodied athletes have beyond just the testosterone issue? Does anyone know how/why all the other advantages have so far been ignored, and the focus put on testosterone levels?

I'd guess it's because it's something fairly easily quantifiable, that they test for anyway. The parameters for other advantages would be quite hard to work out, I would guess.

Why the allowable testosterone level is set so high is another question. I'd have thought a range closer to the levels actually found in women - women with PCOS even - would be more rational. If by some chance a woman did exceed that, maybe they could reduce it with an antiandrogen (many women with pcos use those anyway to treat symptoms).

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/03/21/new-zealand-man-gavin-laurel-hubbard-sweeps-womens-weightlifting-competition

The back story to how Gavin came to compete as Laurel.

I guess it's also because one of the other easily identifiable male characteristics is height - but that one is tricky too. Currently, people who are naturally tall (whether male or female) do have an advantage over a shorter person in many sports - but it would seem very tricky to step in and start categorising between different heights.

It's the whole set of differences combined that make the difference, so height, weight, bone density, pelvis shape and muscle attachment, muscle mass, arm reach, hand size/feet size, lung capacity, heart size and probably others I can't think of. There's a really easy way of managing the categorisation of these combined features - have categories based on biological sex. That's as fair as it can be. I'd support having male, female, transwomen, transmen as categories which seems the sensiblest way of managing this, especially if self identification is all that's required to be in the trans categories.

Just awful. i really feel for the female athletes who have trained for years to excel at their sport and are now being forced to compete alongside men.

I personally think that they should refuse to compete with men in these circumstances. If all the female athletes withdraw the IOC or whichever stupid organisation is behind this will have to listen.

kua I didn't realise he also sponsored the event. Had to laugh at the following photo caption though

Actual heavyweight women’s champ Luniara Sipara on left, next to smug creepy male fucker.

morningrunner I don't know why my answer is unacceptable to you. There are rules in sport, people who promote sport tend to refer to this as a good thing "don't argue with the ref" and that sort of thing. Certainly with my own kids, and heaven only knows what I did wrong to end up with sporty kids I sometimes think my old PE teacher must have entered into some Faustian pact with the Devil to get back at me, all the sports they did expected them to follow the rules and not whine about it even if they didn't like it. Character building.

People on here have talked about trans or intersex women as "cheating" and to me that implies they aren't following the rules, normally in a sneaky or underhand way. The IOC or governing bodies make the rules not me, or you presumably. So I haven't got a problem with it, I'm not sporty so why would I have any opinion on it?

Long winded way of saying I don't have any problem with it and if the IOC/governing bodies change the rules I won't have any problem with that either.

If athletes or sports fans have an issue I assume they can approach their governing bodies about it, rules do change. It is interesting that years ago there were more Olympic events where men and women competed against each other than now e.g. sailing, shooting, equestrian. In the last Olympics it was just equestrian (as someone quoted earlier) and one sailing event. I don't know who got the rules changed but I'm sure people could do some research and find out if they want to.

Hang on a sec, the idea that there could be testing of physical characteristics to classify people for sports would not be accepted by current trans orthodoxy anyway.

Look at the Jeska attempted murder case last week. Jeska was asked to have tests which she considered would have 'outed' her trans status so she was apparently so traumatised she tried to kill someone (according to her defence anyway).

And it would roughly categorise into male and female anyway. So it would be pretty much using male characteristics of their body to categorise them as male. Which is exactly what trans lobby orthodoxy won't accept. They want these differences to effectively be made verboten rather than used to categorise them.

Total non-starter. Would not be accepted by the trans lobby as it would be seen as an attempt to deny their femininity by ditching the male/female categories in favour of measuring characteristics which are pretty roughly male/female split anyway.

Paw
Granny did you read my link? How Gavin/Laurel was raised by an extemely conservative/religious/ homophobic/ultra rich family that bought his success in order not to have a gay male in their family.

Guess that's a win in their books.

It's a bit of a Catch 22 situation at the moment really. Any category which women are in Transwomen must be in. So if they push women out and women try and find new classifications, the trans lobby will immediately claim that they must be included in it and so the cycle starts again.

This is utter nonsense and we're just expected to suck it up. How fucking dare these men redefine women in this way.

how the hell do you fight this bollocks?

kua, no sorry I didn't read the link. Sounds pretty tragic from your description. I can't imagine putting a child through that.

kua reading it it sounds like she did what she wanted, I cant see anything about his family buying it to avoid having a gay male in the family. By the sounds of his father I can't imagine him being terribly keen on his son becoming a woman.

The bit I found shocking was IOC rules allowing women to compete in male events but not being allowed to if they qualify. I'm not sure if the IOC aren't following their own rules or someone else stopping them, their own country or governing body maybe? The rules should be followed and I can't see why that hasn't been challenged if its true. I haven't tried to find any confirmation, maybe you know more about that.

granny can you link that or copy the text.

Wealthy New Zealander Gavin Hubbard, now calling himself “Laurel”, bumped two women from their Olympic weightlifting qualifying slots after he decided to compete in the women’s category. Hubbard is the son of cereal magnate and former Auckland mayor Dick Hubbard, best known for his position against allowing gay people to marry or raise their own biological children. [1]

granny did you miss this?

I wonder if this Hubbard is a "straight" transwoman who is attracted to men? That might explain a few things. There are plenty of conservative and/or religious people who would rather their child be transgender than gay

I wonder if this Hubbard is a "straight" transwoman who is attracted to men? That might explain a few things. There are plenty of conservative and/or religious people who would rather their child be transgender than gay

Very very unlikely. Transwomen who are attracted to men (androphilic) are almost invariably living full-time as a woman by the age of 20 or so (and they tend to pass a lot more convincingly than this chap).

However, it is true that homophobic attitudes and rigid/binary attitudes to gender tend to correlate with higher rates of androphilic transgenderism, when you compare different societies.

I knew someone who was a ladyboy in (Muslim) Sumatra. It's very common there. Maybe more common than being a homosexual.

But he moved to Hindu Bali, and it apparently wasn't socially acceptable. So he changed to be a (slightly effeminate) man. He has a German 'bear' boyfriend/husband & adopted children.

In Thailand, too, the ladyboy culture is far more dominant than homosexual culture.

Camp men in Britain are much more likely to just live as gay men.

I'm not really sure the correlation between being a camp/effeminate gay man (as opposed to the hulking hairy type) and becoming transgender, and whether an Asian ladyboy would say that they identify as woman, man or third sex.

There seems to be a great desire now to insist that someone is transgender/the opposite sex. So if Joe the pensioner who harrasses women dresses up in women's clothes he must BE/have been a woman, even though he is now appearing in court as a man. Transvestism is no longer a thing, everyone must now have magically transformed into the opposite sex.

Completely agree with Granny.
I don't get sport at all.
But for those who do, yes , this isn't on at all.

"Actual heavyweight women’s champ Luniara Sipara on left, next to smug creepy male fucker."

So fucking sad.

I wonder where the money comes from in Olympics and sport, is it sponsorship?

WHY should we be forced to accept these men as women, they are not female.

kua, what did you want the link to? Is it the bit about women qualifying for men's events and not being allowed to compete even though it's in the rules? That was in your link, I don't know how reliable the source is as I didn't check it out, just struck me as something that needs addressing as it if its in the rules I think they should apply it. I'll paste the relevant bit.

Any female can compete in the male category if she qualifies regardless of her hormone levels. No female athlete has ever qualified to compete against males under IOC guidelines. Female athletes that outperform males in male events (example: high jump skiing) have not been allowed to compete

Re your other quote, yes I read that, not a nice attitude from his father but it doesn't say his father forced a sex change rather than have a gay son, of course he might but just doesn't seem likely that he would be in favour of a sex change either. Culture does play a part in that of course, like in Iran, but I just wasn't sure if it was particularly down to the father. It must be horrible to be growing up gay with a father like that.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/03/21/new-zealand-man-gavin-laurel-hubbard-sweeps-womens-weightlifting-competition/

This is interesting on Laurel Hubbard and how LH came to be competing in the women's competition. Very revealing indeed.