To be fucking furious this is happening to women's sports

[Bambambini]

For all those who think trans politics doesn't affect you or your daughters - please read this article of a male forcing women out of their sport and the authorities are letting this happen. If you don't give a shiney shit about this incident - what exactly will it take for you to sit up and take notice and start saying enough.

m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11821399

There's strict drug testing for sports today. I assume hormones are tested too, so I don't see how different levels can be accepted in a race (ie for women and trans women) - surely in that case we just have a free for all - everyone can take what they want.

It's obviously nonsense. Sport is about being an elite, superior specimen.

So the World Touring Car Championship doesn't have the world's fastest cars, it has the world's fastest cars within specific design parameters.

And women's sport doesn't feature 60-year-old men, instead it features the best women in their physical peak. No, they are not the fastest possible humans, but they are the fastest in their category, and that's evident to spectators.

The World Touring Car Championship would not allow you to turn up with a 5 litre engine - it has to be a 1.6 litre turbo.

And you can't compete in the Tour de France on a recumbent bicycle - even though it would be much faster in many cases.

So why do people accept that rusty (figuratively speaking) old bangers should be allowed to compete win in women's sport? It's so obviously nonsense.

This discussion is leading me to recall the banned female Chinese swimmers, branded "drug cheats" who were "cheating to win" when they used testosterone- based muscle building drugs. It's not ever going to be a two-way street, is it.

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-11-17/sports/sp-6389711_world-champion

Has the testosterone limit changed since 1994? Just wondering if her "three times the acceptable limit" is now inside the allowed limit (being about five times the average woman's limit)

So what would happen if a woman had the same testosterone level as a transwoman is permitted? Disqualification?

" (being about five times the average woman's limit)"

No, in fact 99% of female athletes have testosterone below 3.08 nmol/L. The limit is 10 nmol. And the average is just 0.69. So in fact 14x the average woman.

The limit 10 standard deviations above the mean. Six standard deviations above the mean is already one in a billion for a normal distribution. 10 s.ds is zero. I.e., no women who are born, died or will be born would have that much testosterone through normal variation.

I knew the limit was 10, off the top of my head I thought average woman was about 2 though!

This (sorry, I don't know how to link on the app?!):

mobile.nytimes.com/2016/08/20/sports/caster-semenya-800-meters.html

Offers a pretty balanced debate concluding with -

Oh, it did link after all

Ollycat. Most likely she would have to undergo genetic testing to see if she had an intersex condition. If she did then the whole world would know she did. If she didn't then there really isn't an obvious reason for a woman having that much testosterone in her blood so she would either be cheating or trans.

Oh god! Rogue biscuit! Soz.

"Offers a pretty balanced debate "

Not really.

"being too fast and supposedly too masculine” by Western standards.

This is implies that African women are somehow more masculine.

This is not the actuality of the situation. The point is that in a specific section of Africa due to inbreeding there are a high number of intersex people. This is not Africa as a whole nor is it African femininity.

This is a more specific article on the subject, written by a transgender athlete/scientist. sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper/

Caster Semenya has XY chromosomes.

DickToPhone

Thank you for posting this.

This is about a 32 year old MTT looking for a place in the US women's volleyball team:

www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/34947132/despite-criticism-local-transgender-athlete-eyes-2020-summer-olympics

Note this:

There has been some push back from the community. Players and parents we spoke to who did not want to be on camera say it's not fair for teams with biological women because it creates an unrealistic level of competition.

Everyone is too afraid of being called transphobic to discuss this. I don't think it should be up to female athletes to boycott events. That would likely affect their own chances of being selected for teams and events as well as exposing them to vitriol from transactivists and handmaidens.

The vast majority of folk reslise it's ridiculous and unfair -folk just don't have much of a platform to speak about it or are too scared to. Then you have Transwomen and TAs who defend it no matter what (they have to i guess for their delusion) - just keep shouting bigot and the fact the IOC (that bastion if respect) have approved it.

Yes Dicktophone, thank you. That's a reasonably level headed debate going on there.

Particularly -

"The other undesirable scenario I foresee is that transgender women might also be allowed to compete with unaltered testosterone levels. Most trans women desperately want to lower their T levels, but a minority of trans women would be willing to compete against other women with male levels of testosterone. I have seen other trans women argue that if intersex women can compete unaltered, then we should get to do the same thing. This would be a nightmare, not only for the world’s female athletes, but also for those trying to increase acceptance for trans people everywhere."

It is certainly good to hear a trans person offer a perspective that takes account of female athletes and to see them offer a degree of acknowledgement that the presence of transwomen is highly problematic for women's sport.

When DS started in the local rugby club, age 7, the coach moved him up an age category because he said DS was so big, he could injure a child of his own age. DS continues to grow like a weed, but it makes me wonder.

Maybe the solution is to get rid of male and female sports entirely, but like the paralympics, have different categories of competition based on other aspects of physiology. Boxing already has something like it with strict weight categories. So you'd have people competing based on muscle mass, weight, reach, hip ratio, testosterone levels, etc. It would actually open up some sports to women, surely?

Think of it! Women competing in the 31 inch leg length, 9 stone Champion's League alongside men of similar physique? The 5-foot-nothing NBL? The DD bra size marathon?

Granny might feel somewhat differently were they - or a child of theirs - a first rate female athlete, forced into second place , out of a college scholarship , or even killed by a male bodied competitor or opponent .

Just saying ,

MisDescamisados and maybe you might have a bit of empathy for transgender people if you experienced the prejudice they do. Just saying.

It is not prejudice to say that a male-bodied athlete should not compete against female-bodied athletes.

Sports involve the physical body, not the inner 'gender'.

For the avoidance of doubt, surgery does not give one a female body, even if a feminized one.

Empathy isn't a one-way street, and you've shown none for female athletes, granny - unlike the transwomen who've posted, who understand the need for fairness towards women.

MisDescamisados and maybe you might have a bit of empathy for transgender people if you experienced the prejudice they do. Just saying.

Why is any questioning of the trans ideology, whether in sports or spaces always met with with an answer that does nothing at all to address the question.

MisDescamisados and maybe you might have a bit of empathy for transgender people if you experienced the prejudice they do. Just saying.

Where has that occurred on this thread? I would be interested to see those posts.

But a discussion regarding the issues of trans women competing against natal women should be able to be discussed without accusations of transphobia.