School rewarding 8 yr olds for bad behaviour

[Pugwash2005]

My ds and his friends have been complaining because the 4 'naughty' children in their class have a tea party every Friday afternoon if they get over 12 'smileys' in a week, 2 'good' children are also picked to go along. There was an incident in school with one of the challenging pupils but he was still allowed to the party. Ds & I along with other mums think this party is making other children feel they are not rewarded for their good behaviour along with the fact that even when naughty these 4 kids get rewarded. Your opinions on this would be great

rockpebblestone in general I agree with you but in reality a mainstream school can't run an intensive reward scheme for every child and anyway not all children need such intensive interventions. Often the idea is that the intensive reward schemes run for a relatively short time, a few weeks or months, and then back to the usual.

Here persistent disruptive behaviour or challenging behaviour (naughty behaviour, if you prefer that phrase) is regarded as an additional need because of the need for interventions and strategies including positive reinforcement to be used in order to lessen the impact on the whole class, there are consequences too, they should be immediate and appropriate without having an impact on the positive reinforcement strategies (otherwise it defeats the whole purpose) there is no requirement for a DX of SEND. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Mumzy

Strumpers DS had "persistently disruptive behaviour" for more than 6 years before his getting his DX.
He has also had LD for more than 15 years before getting that diagnosed too.
He is no longer "persistently disruptive" because he is being taught well in a school with the appropriate knowledge and understanding of his original DX, consistent strategies/interventions and positive reinforcement do work,

kleinzeit I was thinking, really beyond intensive reward schemes. Tbh I don't really like them that much. My DC got bored of (and sometimes extremely frustrated with) very quickly, stickers, money and even small sweets given as 'rewards', at a very young age (pre-school). It is essentially trying to 'buy' compliance. Children get wise to this. What works better, in my own experience, is enabling the requisite understanding, in a way which is meaningful to the individual along with verbal encouragement.

My DC got bored of (and sometimes extremely frustrated with) very quickly, stickers, money and even small sweets given as 'rewards',

Yes, children vary. My DS went through a lot of reward schemes and they had to adjust the rewards often. One of his school sticker schemes earned him a stapler (funny child but it was what he most wanted!) And for him it wasn't about buying compliance so much as building up habits. Praise was good too but too much verbal was a problem for him.

Enter the dragon......But I'm not talking about persistent challenging behaviour am I. And I don't not understand your paragraph, don't be so rude. I'm talking about the basics here. Non Sen kids who are often or occasionally naughty getting rewards, when those who are good don't. What's so difficult about that for you to understand. I'm pretty sure children with persistent bad behaviour do need something, but what about the children who are behaving well in the first place? Whenever I queried with my kids why they weren't getting no where near the number of house points, honours etc, as others,they always said to me "but mum, only the naughty kids get those" and "There's just no point trying, they go to the kids that are naughty in the morning and good in the afternoon." You have got to admit that there is something fundamentally wrong with that. Who knows how much further on my kids might be if they were rewarded too,even just occasionally. I have absolutely no problems with kids who are as you put it persistent ly challenging getting some sort of different reward system, but it has to be transparent, and visible to other kids that they have a chance of being rewarded too.

In a class of about twenty or thirty kids,and then a tea party or whatever it is going on, just for four kids, how would that make the other 26 or so kids feel? Pretty sad I should think. I think it's a bit like employee of the month, or star if the week, it makes that one person extremely happy, and the rest of the employees feel absolutely rubbish.

mummy, I don't think you can ever exclude children with SENs when you are talking about mainstream classroom practice. Just take a look at the school statistics, if you don't believe me.

However, I do think some interventions and reward schemes can be a little crudely implemented.

IMO It does not do children with SEN any favours if the interventions they receive make them stand out, more so than any differences they might have. Classroom culture needs to change so that there is no such need to publicly compare each other's behaviour or school work in such a competitive way. If the intervention is more about learning about social cues then this could be done in a less obviously exclusive way. At the same time children need to get used to children with differing learning needs being taught by different methods. This should be seen as normal.

Sorry. Last post was addressed to Mumzy.

Do you really think so though Mumzy? Dd's primary took all the permanently excluded children in the County. They had children with very obvious disabilities so children in wheelchairs with no speech and no limb control, children who were deaf, children with Downs syndrome as well as a good number of children with ASD/ADHD and children who had had awful home lives alongside children who were high achieving with no problems whatsoever.
There were obviously lots and lots of different programs and interventions in place (each class had three or four permanent TAs and also a team of part time TAs such was the high needs in each class) but the school fostered an ethos of "no child left behind" and classmates were genuinely delighted for others in their class who had achieved their targets.
The celebration assembly each Friday was always a mass of tears for parents as children who had managed something seemingly tiny to many (such as hitting a switch) were celebrated alongside children who had got every spelling right for a whole half term.
OFSTED noted behaviour was outstanding even among children who had been permanently excluded and sometimes more than once and that all children were fully included not only by their teachers but also by their peers which they described as heartwarming.
If that isn't the ethos in your child's school then that isn't the fault of the children who do receive rewards that is the fault of the school who have failed to foster an ethos of inclusion and also teach their students about empathy and equity (although parents share that responsibility IMO)

Whenever I queried with my kids why they weren't getting no where near the number of house points, honours etc, as others,they always said to me "but mum, only the naughty kids get those" and "There's just no point trying, they go to the kids that are naughty in the morning and good in the afternoon."

So you queried it with your kids because you wanted them to get lots of house points and you were sad and disappointed because they didn't get them, not because they came home and told you they were sad and disappointed ? Or am I confused? And did you query it with their teacher?

I have absolutely no problems with kids who are as you put it persistently challenging getting some sort of different reward system,

Good. Then we seem to have made some progress.

but it has to be transparent, and visible to other kids that they have a chance of being rewarded too.

There's no chance that your children were spinning you a bit of a line? Since you queried them not getting rewards and they needed an explanation?

But if your own kids really feel they are being ignored then that's the real problem, not what the other kids are getting. As with any school problem just seething quietly to yourself wont help your kids. You should talk to the teacher about their motivation.

Who knows how much further on my kids might be if they were rewarded too,even just occasionally.

Who knows indeed? My DS didn't need any extra rewards to be a maths whizz, he was that by instinct. But he needed lots of rewards to learn very basic stuff like sharing and listening. Maybe your kids are very good at those already and they get along well enough in maths etc they they don't need many extra rewards just to keep up with the class. But they should get some.

Yes, children vary. My DS went through a lot of reward schemes and they had to adjust the rewards often. One of his school sticker schemes earned him a stapler (funny child but it was what he most wanted!) And for him it wasn't about buying compliance so much as building up habits. Praise was good too but too much verbal was a problem for him.

My DS earned himself a little gardening set that a TA bought just for him, piece by piece, for a certain behaviour they wanted him to do every day. He earned every bit and a habit was formed so he has no problems in that area any more.

He was allowed to use his set in the school garden, which he loves, with the TA and others wanted to join him. He very generously said yes and shared his tools with them and now they have their own little lunchtime gardening club all instigated by DS. He has developed some strong friendships through this and it's really helped his social skills.

So he could have easily been seen as being rewarded for being naughty, when actually the garden tools were rewards for every time he chose not to do the undesirable behaviour. If he was naughty he didn't get a tool, but he also didn't have any taken away.

rhoda

I don't understand why you would question your children about why others gained more house points etc tbh if it was a concern then ask the teacher.I can't say I ever noticed whether or not the older ones got plenty of house points to be honest and at dd's school points were a class effort for a class reward. Certainly in Infants star of the week went to each child in turn because the teacher ticked off names as they received it.
I expect your children needed to give you an answer about house points and it's easier to say "Johnny gets them because he's naughty" rather than acknowledge that maybe they aren't as bright, well behaved or making as much effort as they need to in order to get the house points.
I think you have a choice you can spend your life looking in envy at what others receive and pass on that envy and dissatisfaction to your children or you can concentrate on your own children and celebrate with them their own achievements and be genuinely happy for others. It's not that difficult tbh and I think it makes for nicer and more pleasant attitudes and discussion.

Klein....I queried the housepoints with my kids because I was concerned they weren't doing stuff right and was wondering if there was an issue. Yes I was sad they weren't getting any, sad for them, as all kids like rewards. I was miffed and sad when they gave me their answer. Who wouldn't be?
What do mean "good, we seem to have made some progress" how rude and condescending can you be?! I have never said anything to the contrary!
Absolutely not that my kids were spinning me a line. Other mums have said the same thing. My kids are well behaved the majority of the time. Teachers have never told me otherwise, but the rewards seem lacking.
I have talked to their teachers about it thanks very much.

You don't need to question them, if they think it's not fair they come home and tell you.

DS1 (at the age of 8) was incensed that a boy who had thumped his best friend got star of the week and said I needed to talk to his teacher how unfair it was for his friend to have to clap that. A bit embarrassing, me being a teacher as well.

Mumzypopz how do you think children feel when they are not allowed to take part in class assemblies or school plays. Or when they are not allowed to go on school trips. Or when they are not allowed to take part in some sports or go swimming with the rest of their class. Or when they are not allowed to go to afterschool clubs. Or they spend most of lunchtime indoors because they are not allowed in the playground. Or they spend most of their time in school in the corridor with a TA because they are not allowed in the classroom.

Mumzy, ultimately I don't think you need to be particularly sad that your children have sussed rewards schemes can be a bit meaningless. At best teachers can only guess at how much effort a pupil has actually made. It is better for their motivation to be fired by the intrinsic rewards, connected with mastering a skill or knowledge in a subject, than any external reward someone might artificially supply. They have shown some sophisticated understanding in not being bothered to much by it. They maybe sound a little bitter but then this might mean they will enjoy reading and commenting upon a bit of Karl Marx when they are older!

As for your own concern, you sound a little anxious. Believe me, if any of your children was seriously misbehaving, you would soon know about it.

I have never said anything to the contrary!

Well, you said "what we are talking about here are children more than likely with no Sen, being given rewards, whilst children who are behaving well, get none." Which is exactly to the contrary of "I have absolutely no problems with kids who are as you put it persistently challenging getting some sort of different reward system". So I thought you had changed your mind.

Sorry if I misunderstood and we haven't got anywhere at all.

Most 'naughtiness' IME results from a lack of understanding or self control on some level.

I agree this is true for many children when they are quite small. However, some children will be 'naughty' in order to get attention, even if that attention is negative, as long as the consequences are no more than a telling off, and this does not always indicate a lack of self-control or a shortage of appropriate attention. Children vary greatly in how robust their attitudes toward adult disapproval are.

And as they get older and 'fitting in' with their peers becomes more and more important to them, children will also misbehave in order to show off, impress their friends, or fit into a group. They may well care more about that then about what the adult in the room (the teacher) thinks.

kestral,

However, some children will be 'naughty' in order to get attention, even if that attention is negative, as long as the consequences are no more than a telling off, and this does not always indicate a lack of self-control or a shortage of appropriate attention. Children vary greatly in how robust their attitudes toward adult disapproval are.

And as they get older and 'fitting in' with their peers becomes more and more important to them, children will also misbehave in order to show off, impress their friends, or fit into a group. They may well care more about that then about what the adult in the room (the teacher) thinks.

Whilst I agree, that your reasoning here, is correct for some cases, I still would categorise this as not really having a deep enough understanding or disciplined enough self control. With more understanding and self control a child will realise the importance of good behaviour (for its own ends) and resist the short lived satisfaction a bit of extra attention can give or peer group approval can give.

Sorry, my last post was to kesstrel.

Rock most if not all interventions for children with SEND will make them stand out though, what interventions could be put into place for children with SEND that won't make them stand out?

Klein...You have absolutely misunderstood. I am not talking about Sen, I am not even talking about kids who clearly have issues because they are persistently naughty/ challenging, I am talking about those kids who are naughty in the morning and good in the afternoon.

Spikeyball....That's a very sad situation but that still does not make it right that children with no issues get no rewards does it. To be clear, I am not talking about children with Sen.