School rewarding 8 yr olds for bad behaviour

[Pugwash2005]

My ds and his friends have been complaining because the 4 'naughty' children in their class have a tea party every Friday afternoon if they get over 12 'smileys' in a week, 2 'good' children are also picked to go along. There was an incident in school with one of the challenging pupils but he was still allowed to the party. Ds & I along with other mums think this party is making other children feel they are not rewarded for their good behaviour along with the fact that even when naughty these 4 kids get rewarded. Your opinions on this would be great

Why is it so impossible for some people to believe that not all kids have Sen?

Zzzzz you don't have to reward either. Anyway my viewpoint is that i really have no probkem with Sen kids being rewarded all the time, that's a different issue, but it's totally wrong for kids who are genuinely just being naughty are rewarded and those who are sitting behaving well are not. Kids who are good also need to be rewarded.

No your child might be naughty occasionally as many children are and it isn't an additional need. But if a child or children as you describe are "repeatedly naughty" and disrupting their or the class' learning or who have programs in place such as extra rewards and incentives,small group activities or even tea parties then their behaviour is an additional need and the school are duty bound to make provision.
Thes children might not at five be considered to have special needs but could later on receive a diagnosis which wouldmake them classed as having special needs.

Mumzy ds had a diagnosis of extreme challenging behaviour at three, he was never punished in fact he had rewards showered upon him by the bucket load. At one point he had a TA sitting next to him putting stickers on his jumper every time he held a pencil, he came home snided in them every day for months and months.
He came home for weeks at a time with lumps of playdough that the TA would make for him and then give him a lump for every positive action, hell he even got rewarded for screwing up his work because he hadn't ripped his or anybody else's up.
At 14 in Mainstream secondary he got a prize in the Headmaster's prizegiving for having an exemplary record for behaviour and achievement.
So yes years and years of rewards paid dividends and altered ds's behaviour without him ever being punished or reprimanded because I rewarded in the same fashion at home too.

I havent RTFT but it sounds like positive behaviour reinforcement to me. It's far better to reward good behaviour than punish undesirable behaviour.

Punishing kids, particularly those with SEN often leads to them feeling demoralised, believing they can only be good or naughty (particularly the more literal kids) and thus it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

My own DS was one of these so called 'naughty' kids. At his school at the end of each term the kids who hadn't been told off at all got a party with drinks and cake. Those who had had a minor transgression or two got to go, but no treats and those who had had worse sanctions weren't allowed to go. In DS' words "The good kids get a party, whilst all the bad kids have to go off to another classroom and do work."

DS has ASD. He would get punishments for things related to his condition that were beyond his control, such as when he stimmed when he found things hard to cope with. Because of this as soon as he got told off and was told he'd lost out on the party he stopped behaving. When the head asked him why he'd suddenly started acting up he said there was no point in being good any more as he'd already lost out on the reward.

The head teacher realised they'd not thought of it that way and they have now adjusted how they do things for the kids with needs. When DS told me which kids missed out on the party with him the names he reeled off were all the kids with ASD, ADHD, Dyspraxia etc.!

So now school rewards all the behaviour they want more of. Punishments for undesirable behaviour have to be immediate, relevant, objective and measurable. There is no point re-punishing a child for something that happened days or weeks ago.

I suspect they are rewarding the behaviour that they want to see more of and are using this time as a way to explain to the children which behaviour was responsible for this. They will likely also be using this time to improve their social skills too. When DS attended a social skills group in his younger years they were played out like a tea party. And even if there's no SEN, kids who are acting out could obviously do with a little help with social skills anyway - as could many of us!

I think some people see what they want to see and disregard the rest. With DS1, the class teacher is of the opinion he is just rude and choosing to be so. After reaching crisis point where I kept him off until things changed as he broke down, a number of things have been put in place (that officially should have already been there but hey ho). They've reported back he isn't pulling his hair and shaking as much. (they'd not actually reported he had been doing that in the first place, just that one incident where he shook and growled "at them")

I run a nurture group in a primary school - I think often other staff and pupils struggle with the "injustice" of the special treatment of the "naughty kids".

The lives that some of these children have had to endure, no amount of stickers or tea parties could ever fill the void between theirs and a child who by pure luck has been born into a situation that has contributed to a robust emotional development that means they can manage themselves well.

They break my heart every day.

Thank you so much for this thread.
At work at the moment we have some challenging primary school children who can't be in a classroom (or in a room with other children) because they become very agitated and ultimately violent.
It is a state primary school and as yet there is no diagnosus for these youngsters.
School are doing exactly what is suggested by many posters on here breaking down interactions into very small achievable chunks and rewarding positive choices.
It is causing disgruntled children parents and some staff.
Even though I can see it could work it has changed the school dramatically as there are now 5 class/group rooms unavailable as these children need a safe place each.
I really was buoyed to hear that it truly can make a difference long term. I hope that there are no behaviour management strategies that would put this good work in jeopardy.
Going to bed feeling more positive than an hour ago. Thanks.
And 💐💐 to all those who know and understand the struggles some children have to face.

As a basic rule of thumb, I believe every child should receive an equal amount of encouragement (be that just verbal affirmation or an actual physical 'reward').

They need this simply for their self esteem and to point them in the right direction.

The rest just comes down to differentiation. It follows those that find acting in a way which is considered 'good' particularly easy, in order to be challenged, need to be particularly considerate and thoughtful in order for them to progress and be rewarded for their further achievement, those who find being 'good' much more challenging, less so.

So in other words comparisons don't work.

Dixienormas.....My child is not naughty every day, I haven't said he is. He is naughty occasionally as if every other child. When he is naughty I do not want him rewarded.

Zzzzz, I don't know every child in the class, so I couldn't tell you for sure who has Sen and who doesn't. I'm imagining it's small numbers. My child does not have Sen. At all. I know my child. Anyway my viewpoint is that that is a different separate issue. This thread is about children who have no Sen, but who get rewarded for being naughty, whilst those who are good, get nothing.

Insanity....I haven't described any children as repeatedly naughty? I think you are getting me mixed up with someone else.
You have described your child as being diagnosed with extreme challenging behaviour, (I am sorry to hear that). to me this is a separate issue to what the OP is talking about. Treats and rewards are more than likely appropriate in those circumstances, but what we are talking about here are children more than likely with no Sen, being given rewards, whilst children who are behaving well, get none.

No, this thread is about children who have no SEN getting rewarded for being naughty

The OP has no idea whether the 'tea party group' have SEN or not.

Lots of people have pointed out that the tea party might well be an intervention for children with SEN - and lots of other people have jumped to the conclusion that the children don't have SEN and are being rewarded for being naughty.

Sorry - this thread is not about children...etc

He is naughty occasionally as if every other child. When he is naughty I do not want him rewarded.

And when he is naughty, he doesn't get rewarded. That's good. That's the way things work best for kids who are only naughty occasionally.

But all kids should be rewarded at least sometimes in school. So if your own son is never getting any rewards or recognition at all then I am sorry.

It's a whole other deal for kids who are persistently naughty. They need the intensive reward schemes. Think of it like a training scheme. If you wanted your child who never hits the ball straight to go from a standing start to winning every tennis match he played you'd start by rewarding him every time he hit a ball in the right direction. And you wouldn't take away all his hitting-the-ball-right rewards if he didn't win every match he played that week. For persistently naughty kids, holding it in is like winning a tennis match. They just can't do it reliably. So instead you reward every little step that makes holding it in easier - sitting still for five minutes, sitting down when the the teacher asks, listening, sharing a toy, being polite. Every good habit you want them to build up is like hitting the ball. It all contributes to winning a match. Rewards which they can only get after winning all their matches come later.

This thread is about children who have no Sen,

Sure, that is what you are interested in. But the original poster couldn't know if the four "naughty" children had diagnosed SEN or not.

And the difference is not between SEN and no SEN, it's between occasional and persistent challenging behaviour (or "naughtiness" since that's what you prefer to call it). Even being badly behaved often enough to need an intensive behaviour-change reward scheme could count as an additional need in itself, whether there is a diagnosed condition or not.

You only know your own child so you've never had to learn how to manage and change persistent naughtiness. So I don't know why you find it so had to believe those of us who have. The behaviour-change playscheme that my own DS attended wasn't only for kids with diagnosed SEN but they were all very challenging anyway and they rewarded them all that way!

zzzzz I think you have misunderstand my post. When I say every child should receive the same amount of rewards / positive affirmations this does not mean they are treated the same. They get rewards which are appropriate according to their individual ability. This is differentiated treatment.

So (crudely) for example a child who finds it very difficult to sit still and concentrate would get rewarded for concentrating for a very short time whereas a child who found sitting still and concentrating on their work would get rewarded for successfully achieving something else that was more challenging for them.

If child is sufficiently sophisticated enough to appreciate the rewards from achieving well in their work the resulting high mark and comments would be enough, if the work interests them less another more anti le (to them) reward might be more appropriate.

Interventions, that are presented as treats, I also think can be entirely appropriate.

Please do not misunderstand, I am not the parent who would be complaining at other children receiving additional support. My own DC has received some in the past and had a Statement of SEN.

Tangible not anti le. Typo.

Zzzzz I never ever said my child was regularly naughty. Ever. He is not.

Oh, and if your DS ever does show signs of persistent naughtiness you can learn how to do it yourself at home - plenty of well-respected parenting programmes will advise you. Try Incredible Years, you can get the book or there may be parenting schemes running in your area. It's not only about reward schemes but it's also very good on when and how to reward, praise, communicate, ignore, punish, etc. And plenty of similar parenting schemes exist.

I also, personally question, whether a child is ever really 'naughty'. Most 'naughtiness' IME results from a lack of understanding or self control on some level. Not that children should not be corrected, but what they really need is to be enabled to gain more understanding and punishment does not necessarily enable this. Punishment, IMO, only really works as a deterrent when understanding or self control is not sufficient on its own.