School rewarding 8 yr olds for bad behaviour

[Pugwash2005]

My ds and his friends have been complaining because the 4 'naughty' children in their class have a tea party every Friday afternoon if they get over 12 'smileys' in a week, 2 'good' children are also picked to go along. There was an incident in school with one of the challenging pupils but he was still allowed to the party. Ds & I along with other mums think this party is making other children feel they are not rewarded for their good behaviour along with the fact that even when naughty these 4 kids get rewarded. Your opinions on this would be great

But you don't need to be informed of another child's SN, it is their story to tell or not. A simple "all children learn at different speeds and need different support, this is true for reading or swimming, but also behaviour" should be enough to explain perceived differences in treatment.

And when your 9 year old is suicidal you just tell them that the bullies haven't got it yet with regards to behaviour so she just has to put up with it, even if it involves her being held under the water and nearly drowning? Oh yes and then she watches the people who have tried to kill her being rewarded instead of punished?

High expectations of kids, I wonder how many adults would accept that sort of behaviour a work?

Or just explain "the squeaky wheel gets the oil".

My DP has just spent ages last week advocating for a student who had very high needs that were not being supported. The student was quiet and withdrawn, DP was seriously concerned about the lack of support she was getting, but so obviously needed. DP finally got someone to listen and begin to take this student's needs seriously.

But a child being suicidal because of bullying is quite different from OP's son wanting to go to a tea party? The bullying needs to be addressed, the jealousy because of a missed tea party can easily be addressed with children having different needs.

I don't think the op mentioned there was any bullying involved.

brasty, your partner is a hero. If only the good kids always got considered but the sidelining of the wellbehaved children starts early. I think it is very unfair to alot of the "naughty" kids as well. It must be such a shock when they go out into the work place and discover that they aren't going to get the special treatment they have got used to.

The story about truanting kids getting a trip to Africa is a great example. I've managed my life quite well but never needed a trip to Africa. I would guess that the majority of people reading this have never been to Africa. You can give appropriate support without this sort of thing.

Some of the 'naughty' children will never be able to work.

paxillin the exact same reationale was used about the bullies who tormented my daughter. You have to understand, they aren't happy. The message was thumping my daughter was therapy for them and she had to put up with it just like the OPs son sees kids getting rewarded for bad behaviour and he has to put up with it. Give them rewards and encouragement if they behave - great. Give them rewards when they don't behave - not great.

Personally I think the big insult about the "party" is that two well behaved children are selected to share the treat so it is clearly identified as a treat. Getting to go once a term or once a year is just like rubbing their noses in it. At least make it a party for 8, if all the "naughty" kids behave they all go with 4 of the good children, if they don't behave 5, 6, 7 or even 8 good kids go. The good kids at least have a reasonable chance. Or be honest and say its a treat for these 4 kids and they go and everyone else gets on with their lives.

Many many teachers are probably wonderful, they certainly are at DS2s school. That however does not negate the fact that many of them are not so much rubbish as ill informed and under trained.

You can't expect parents and children to have a positive attitude to SN if the staff don't and as I said before this is seen in reverse at DS2s school, it's all about the ethos.

Spikeyball maybe they won't and maybe some of the other kids will be so damaged by them that they won't either.

In the bigger picture of a school or class sidelining of the well behaved children starts early is an overgeneralised comment. Well behaved children are recognised, there are other praise and systems for recognition at work. Sweeping statements such as that one make it seems like only the poorly behaved are ever rewarded. This simply isn't true.
Praise and rewards take many forms and are applied by professionals, selectively and appropriately, to the children they are educating. What about academic success, what about positions of leadership (captains), school council membership, sporting achievements; feedback on work,I could go on. Other children are being praised and rewarded for their achievements too.
Please come and volunteer in school if you are not a teacher. Please give us some credit for our expertise.

Youdosomething I do volunteer in a school. I admit it is better at this sort of thing than the school that my daughter attended for 3 miserable years. They still bend overbackwards for the "naughty" kids e.g. a child who was complaining about bullying wasn't listened to. His parents were repeatedly told it was six of one and half a dozen of the other. I saw him being attacked one day, he was sitting on a wall minding his own business. I took him to the Head and explained what I had seen. Did he get some support, did he hell. The head's response was "Were you being annoying."

I can't give the teacher she had for 2 years any credit, she was as bad as some of the kids. I was told by other parents that she always hated the brightest kids and I can't disagree with that.

But it is not the bright academic well behaved kids I see being sidelined. It is the average quiet ones, who do not stand out. Some are invisible because they have had good practice at becoming so, to avoid bullying, abusive parents, or lots of other challenges.

Maisy i do agree that schools need to look at how strategies and interventions are structured but often such interventions such as is being discussed here need to be consistent and long term in order to have the desired effect. How it is 'sold' to the pupils involved and to their classmates is the key.

If an intervention or strategy is removed for every transgression of the behaviour policy then that intervention or strategy becomes useless.
For example, DS used to go and eat his lunch in a nice quiet room with a member of staff, for DS it was a reasonable adjustment needed to prevent him from becoming distressed and lashing out, other children saw it as being a reward or preferential treatment and some complained to their parents, parents complained to me about it being unfair and were angry at me for having a child with SEN in mainstream education and getting preferential treatment, imo the school handled it badly and began sanctioning DS, once kids knew that ds couldn't cope with the volume of noise in school some of them began shouting right next to him or worse right in his ears, he would lash out in fright and then would run away. The same thing happened when other kids were told not to touch him unexpectedly, consequences were applied to him but not the others.

It's not a party. It's a behaviour intervention group. The 2 'non-naughty' children are going as role models.

That's what I thought, Kings

I disagree, Paxillin. There is a need to know, if others are being affected. Obviously to an appropriate degree and in an age appropriate fashion. But there is a reason why the maxim "Justice must not only be done, but must also be seen to be done" exists.

Behaviour management is very different from reading or swimming. Children have a very keen sense of right and wrong and will pick up on perceived injustices or unfairness in treatment.

As a separate point, it is important to ensure that victims are supported and protected, and their feelings also taken into account. There is a wealth of evidence that the adult survivors of bullying (physical and/or emotional) and abusive behaviour can suffer long-lasting negative consequences right into adulthood, such as very serious mental health issues, even if they may appear outwardly successful. Any Mumsnet thread on this issue will provide ample evidence of this. Let's not prioritise one group over another.

Are the 2 non naughty kids parents aware that their role is to be role models for the other pupils?

The op wasn't talking about bullying.

It seems there is more than one issue going on here. Some schools/teachers are indeed not catering effectively for kids with additional needs. But it is just simply not true that all 'naughty' children have additional needs. If you did an honest poll of MNers about how they behaved when they were at school, I'm sure that there would be plenty who would admit to playing up and being a pain in lessons simply because they were kids/teenagers, not because they had SEN or problems at home. If rewards are being used to bribe these kids, then it's not surprising that the well-behaved kids feel pretty fed up.

Eolian

I completely agree with your last post.

Enterthedragon, your situation provides an interesting example. Did the other children who were causing difficulties for your DS fully understand what his "triggers" were and how to behave around him? Because without adequate information about the nature and severity of the SEN I cannot see how they could.