School rewarding 8 yr olds for bad behaviour

[Pugwash2005]

My ds and his friends have been complaining because the 4 'naughty' children in their class have a tea party every Friday afternoon if they get over 12 'smileys' in a week, 2 'good' children are also picked to go along. There was an incident in school with one of the challenging pupils but he was still allowed to the party. Ds & I along with other mums think this party is making other children feel they are not rewarded for their good behaviour along with the fact that even when naughty these 4 kids get rewarded. Your opinions on this would be great

SOME teachers are seeing it as black and white here.

I am not generalising, unlike many on thread.

If a child does have a diagnosed SEN then just taking away treat wont work, as people have said.

Yet it has been advocated here..for a particular child WITH a diagnosed SEN, by a trained teacher.

Of course you cant treat all behvaiours as diagnosed SEN. But surely its not too much to ask to understand your pupils and tailor an approach to their specific needs.

And now im going to go out becsuse this is frustrating and unproductive. I feel for people who are having issues like this in school.

Taking away treat might work for some kids with sEN. But a poster was talking about her own child for whom this wouldnt work and still was met with a suggestion it should be taken away

Kew - it's working now, what really works is a school willing to be adaptable and understand that what worked last week may not work this week. Also an ability to think outside of the box...the one ds doesn't fit into.

Ds also loves approval..."but are you proud of me mummy?" I agree it can be complex.

The message is that all children are different. Close observation and professional knowledge by teachers are used to plan support for that individual. Posters here can't make a sound judgement on any of that because you don't know the individual child or their background.

The poster who talked earlier about a child kicking off and throwing chairs whilst the class were removed, of course this is what happened, under risk assessments, health and safety and safeguarding this is correct. We are keeping your children safe, by taking them away from a room where they might get hit by a chair. This also gives 'chair throwing child' who at this point is beyond reasoning with, time to calm down. There is no point in trying to reason with a child at this point, this sanctions come later when the child is calm enough to listen.

Dealing with behaviour is complex, there are many non teachers on here who seem to know just how to manage this complex issue. You can either support and be advised by your children's teachers and trust that they are using their professional expertise to make the best judgement or train as a teacher and go and do the job -in a much better way than you think we can-. I feel so frustrated that such a complex issue is so easily dealt with by a range of non professionals.

WateryTart when a child is lashing out and they are not being deliberately violent, they are doing it because they are distressed. In a lot of cases there is no point in telling them they won't get the weekly reward if they are unkind/ hurt others etc because it won't make any difference. If they are distressed they will still do it.
I am so glad my child is now in a school where the staff understand this.

Quite possibly. But the injured DC has a right to see that his pain has been acknowledged. Or do you think they should just put up with it?

Rewards don't help to build intrinsic motivation. If your dc is working hard and behaving themselves without the need for external rewards be very grateful, you've cracked it and so have they! External rewards encourage a child to work for the reward not the feeling of achievement and self motivation.

I would say you get your treat if you meet your target, unless you hurt another DC. The other DCs need to see that it isn't tolerated.

You're right that children on the receiving end need to see that their feelings matter too, and that they have a right not to be hurt which is taken seriously and upheld by the adults around them. But that comes from the adult's interaction with that child, not specifically from withdrawing a tea party or sticker from the injuring child. The exact sanction is no one else's business, it'll be part of a much bigger picture they have no sight of. A good outcome for the injured child might be "I'm sorry that shouldn't have happened to you. Tell me all the details. Now we need to make sure it doesn't happen again." and then move the children or whatever. That will be much more effective in helping and validating the injured child than doling out random punishments just so the injured child can see.

I don't doubt that there are "wallflower children" in some classes, whose lives aren't all rosy and who don't get help they need because they sit quietly and don't complain. But the solution should be to talk to them, address their own particular needs, find ways to give them a bit of attention in their own right, not to give them stickers for sitting quietly because Little Johnny is getting one. I know this must be practically impossible in a class of33 sometimes, but doling out stickers for sitting nicely is pointless, they soon learn not to value them.

You can acknowledge the injured child's pain without doing something pointless and possibly detrimental to the child with sen. My child gets scratched or hit occasionally by other children at his special school. I don't expect retribution for it.

And excuse me whilst I step aside and piss myself at this statement Non-nurture group kids are full of empathy because its all very clear and fair. Are you sure you're a teacher?!

Yes. Im not saying all kids are angels but the vast majority (certainly by secondary) realise that if another child is accessing the support base there's a reason. It could be SEND, pastoral, counselling, mentoring. They are never informed of the details because that would be wrong. Kids who have appointments leave and come back into mainstream lessons and theres no fuss, no rye rolls, no muttering. It's just accepted as part of school life. All kids know that there might be a time when thry need taht support.

I think it's a testament to our amazing SEND and pastoral team that our set up is that good. Our parents and children feel supported.

But obviously, people who only have experience of their DC in primary are experts on education.

I think it is a bit much to expect children of primary school to manage without external praise, and simply be internally motivated.

I think it is a bit much to expect children of primary school to manage without external praise, and simply be internally motivated. I doubt we are talking about lack of praise on this thread - we're talking about big rewards. Are people saying their child never gets told by the teacher that they have worked hard because they are so busy rewarding the more challenging pupils? I don't think it's ever too early to encourage intrinsic motivation, you either encourage it or reduce it with external motivators.

I have an older child with Aspergers in secondary. He is an introvert though, very quiet and not at all confrontatonal. We have had a lot of teachers in our time.

There is a woeful lack of understanding and training about SN in schools. DS2 is at a great school now but they are very much the exception when I talk to other parents of children with SN. (Local support group). I have talked myself hoarse explaining that NT Sanctions may not work for children who are not NT...I may publish a pamphlet for next year. Support is very very lacking.

DS1's senco told me in front of him that it was almost as if he had a split personality as he was confident sometimes and not others. Ffs! And this is the guy with the extra training! Heaven help us.

Coloursthatweremyjoy
I dont think for one second that all schools have all staff perfectly trained. I also think funding for support etc is being slashed and its having an effect on kids.

But I dont think people can say based on their own anecdotal experience that teachers are shite. Just like I'll not claim all schools run like mine.

The problem on these sorts of threads is that people tend to view entire groups based on very narrow experiences.

Maisy, Poor behaviour is regarded as an additional need though (especially at primary age) and as such should be supported by schools, regardless of whether at that point there is diagnosed SEND or not, children with disabilities are not always diagnosed by the age of 4 when the majority start school, many children are not diagnosed with SEND until they are late primary or early secondary age or even beyond, and that is often because schools do not have a good knowledge or understanding of SEND, this is of course in my experience.

Two children completely different profiles one with a diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome at 6yrs old, school said they "can't have LD with that diagnosis", but he had a statement with 25hrs 1-1 based on the findings of a SaLT report and poor behaviour. Fast forward a few years and he ended up in a special school where academic difficulties were recognised and reasonable adjustments made leading to a massive reduction of the challenging behaviour, fast forward a few more years and at 16 the true extent of 2 specific learning disabilities came to light. For far too long my concerns were brushed aside with a "we are the professionals", "we have expertise in this field", "we know what we are talking about" as for me I'm just a mum who sat with her child night after night for 6 years while he had night terrors, he and I survived every night on short bursts of sleep. He was terrified of school because his needs were not being met. He was excluded because he couldn't not wouldn't behave. He was made to suffer consequences because he couldn't not wouldn't conform to expectations placed on him by a school who wouldn't meet his needs.

The other child coasted through infants and juniors until yr 6, then began to struggle slightly in 1 subject and that continued to worsen throughout secondary but was not flagged as a problem, left school and went to college but struggled massively for the first yr, college got their EP involved and a specific learning disability was diagnosed and also the fact that she was in the top 2% on other parts of the Assessment, she was allowed to re sit the first yr with Support and other reasonable adjustments. There has never been any challenging behaviour but she went through school and college masking her difficulties and is now considering persuing an ASD diagnosis because she totally fell apart at work. I would not be surprised if she got the same diagnosis as her sibling.

Schools must not disclose medical information to all and sundry so often parents of other children assume there are no disabilities or other difficulties but see certain children being treated differently and threads like this appear.

Schools must not disclose medical information to all and sundry so often parents of other children assume there are no disabilities or other difficulties but see certain children being treated differently and threads like this appear.

I agree. Then the school should (in my opinion) look at thr way it structures support etc. How these things are set up makes a massive difference to how successful they arr

"So let me get this straight.

The kids who have the privilege of a well adjusted home, with parents who value education and learning and boundaries (and are therefore are more likely to work with the school and not accept bad behaviour)... oh and no SEND issues, need to have awards given to them to make things fair?

Who are the special snowflakes again?"

@user0000000001 - I was that child with the parents who valued education, the well adjusted home, boundaries etc etc - but I didn't want awards. All I wanted was not to be bullied every day, to be allowed to be happy at school. For someone to have noticed how unhappy - even suicidal I was. Does that make me a selfish special snowflake?

It is overly simplistic to insist that children from nice homes with parents who value education have no problems and no needs.

If I had seen my bullies getting rewarded after bullying me, I would have felt even less valued than I already did - and I did not feel valued at all!!

I've watch DD bully being awarded for something at school - it does grate and make the victim feel even worse ....

some children don't have 'special needs' in terms of asd or whatever. However they do have really bad attachment issues and spend a lot of time in a state of fight or flight.
For them, being in the classroom all the time, and not lashing out at anyone , getting on with work etc is a HUGE achievement. It is much harder for someone who is constantly anxious to do that than it is for someone who is not anxious.

Some of you seem to have NO idea how hard some children's lives are.

Does that make me a selfish special snowflake?

Of course it doesn't.

Any more than the kids with behavioural difficulties are 'special snowflakes' for getting recognition for things that other kids find really easy...

Nothing useful to add that others haven't already said beyond the experience I had at my our practically-bankrupt failing comprehensive where a select group of serial-non-attenders were offered the chance to go on a two-week trip to Africa to see the lions and zebras and whatnot, all expenses paid, if they made 90% attendance. I and other classmates had 100% attendance at that point, mainly a case of parents bringing us in when we should really have been at home, and in previous years our prize for doing so well had been.... drumroll... a photocopied certificate. We all found that incredibly demotivational because no one bothered to stop and explain to us the rationale behind it. Our overriding impression was, what's the point of trying when you get so well rewarded for fucking around? So in protest, my group of friends and I decided to start skipping class, with the net result that I did worse in my GCSEs in the end than I should have. As an adult I now understand and recognise that I had literally nothing to envy about those kid's lives, but I think my point (if I have one, I'm not sure) is that you really do need to find the right way to explain it to your child, otherwise the sense of injustice can be really sharp, and it can have a negative effect on their own decisions.

I think the problem is if your "good" child's life is being made a misery by the "naughty" children. It is irrelevant to the child being bullied that the bully has a diagnosis/bad home life or whatever. They just want to be left alone.

It was finally taken seriously when one of the parent governors saw one of these kids trying to drown my daughter in a swimming lesson. She had begged a teacher for help and her distress was dismissed. When the teacher was later challenged she cried and said she didn't realise my daughter was serious.

My daughter was a bright happy well behaved child. She told me years later, when she was at university, that she was still too scared to go and sit next to people in lectures or in the cafeteria unless they specifically invited her because she still expected people to turn on her.

When my daughter was 11 she auditoned for a leading role in the school play, one of her bullies got the part but wouldn't learn her lines, missed rehearsals and messed about. The final insult, my daughter was given the job of helping her with the part. It got to a few days before the performance and the Head finally lost it and gave the part to my daughter. Of course my daughter was then subjected to loads of abuse from this girl and her friends as my daughter had "stolen" her part.

So I hope the kids who need help get it, not just the "naughty" kids but also the "good" kids who are just expected to put up with being assaulted.

Ds & I along with other mums think this party is making other children feel they are not rewarded

^^This is a bit sad though. OP talks to her 8year old ds and other mums about the 4 "naughty" kids and how they should be treated. I feel for those 4 kids and their parents, their school days are probably tough enough without this gossip.

I don't agree with the culture of secrecy around SN. Confidentiality is important but there need to be proportionate exceptions where other people are impacted by behaviour. My child finds it confusing that certain children are treated differently. I have tried to explain but I am entirely in the dark about whether they have SN and what the implications of that might be and hence how to explain it. Give other parents some credit and be a little more open. I think that might resolve some of the resentment felt by the rest of the class. If mainstreaming is to work then there needs to be honesty about the challenges and the reality of dealing with them.