School rewarding 8 yr olds for bad behaviour

[Pugwash2005]

My ds and his friends have been complaining because the 4 'naughty' children in their class have a tea party every Friday afternoon if they get over 12 'smileys' in a week, 2 'good' children are also picked to go along. There was an incident in school with one of the challenging pupils but he was still allowed to the party. Ds & I along with other mums think this party is making other children feel they are not rewarded for their good behaviour along with the fact that even when naughty these 4 kids get rewarded. Your opinions on this would be great

The bottom line is that nobody knows if the children in question here have SN or are just badly behaved but either way the 'tea parties' are an intervention aren't they?

My relationship with my best friend was severely challenged the day she moaned about the "naughty" kids getting all the rewards and her well behaved DD getting overlooked.

My son has ADHD and ASD. His first school would have pleased a lot of people on this thread. They liked Sanctions. Lots of Sanctions, missing break for not finishing his work, sitting in the naughty chair becausee he put his hands over his ears while the other children were singing, talking over other people, not making eye contact, you know, REALLY bad stuff like that. But he didn't respond to Sanctions, so they started sending him to the head, shouting at him, dragging him about when he wouldn't move himyself. I was once called in three times in one day because they "shouldn't have to deal with children like this".

He started having meltdowns by which I do not mean tantrums. They lost all control, they couldn't make him do anything, he spent his school days hiding under the table, his self esteem completely crashed. He hurt a teacher, of course if they hadn't been performing a two man restraint outlawed in nursing homes on a 9 year old child in full meltdown he might have been OK.

We moved him. In this school he has a nurture group (tea party club), a smiley sticker chart where he can't lose the stickers once he has earned them, yoga instead of full school assemblies, time on the i pad if he meets his targets. He has been there a year, he has moved on two years in his reading, a year in maths, he is making friends, he joins in (his teacher shows me video clips). Last week he LED the school in wake and shake, something he could not have accessed at all a year ago. He is calm, his class is calm.

Yes, it all looks nicey nicey and why should he get rewarded for doing 'normal' things that his class mates do all the time for no reward. But as I said to my friend. Which version of him would you like your child to go to school with?

Spikey didnt say ALL violent behaviour came from a SEND need though

Colours

I appreciate that some people on this thread hate people giving their personal anecdotes, but your post reminded me a little of my DS.

He has charts where he gets awards for not interrupting, concentrating, not answering back. Things that most kids, and parents, would consider really basic.

He has no official diagnosis (yet).

Absolutely no where have I said on this thread that all naughty kids have special needs. Yet I have to spend hours trying to convince people he does have a need and is not just naughty...

His behaviour is improving (very slowly) as a result of these measures... I completely agree when you ask who people would rather their kids went to school with.

Interesting that no one has addressed the point on the two imaginary children being called Jaydon and Kyle.... very telling.

Oh... and he gets iPad time (several times daily) as his reward.

Colours that was tough reading.

Your poor boy.
I'm so glad he's found a better environment.

For the millionth time. There's no issue with tea parties and nurture groups as a thing.

There is an issue if they're being poorly led so that it's not clear to the children what's going on. (E.g. teaching, learning and pastoral needs being mixed up with classroom rewards systems.)

We have nurture groups at my school. They are supportive and well ran with appropriate intervention etc (I know because I run one of them). We also have additional groups for SEMH and SEND in our SEN base on site. Kids get it. There's no confusion and children are supported. Non-nurture group kids are full of empathy because its all very clear and fair.

Running additional support groups etc well is a full structural task that needs to be very well planned and thought through for all children. It doesnt sound like thats the case in the OP.

user0000000001 Isnt that for the person who used those names to discuss their choice. Ive given many examples on threads with names on like Timmy and Sophie but dont expect a pat on the back for it.

Perhaps our boys go to the same amazing school user.

The thing is, in this school the attitudes are different. Staff have a great knowledge of SN and handle things incredibly well so the children are more tolerant and understanding as well. When we were sown around the year six girl who was our guide pointed to a small classroom and said "that's a quiet room, some children need to work in there sometimes if it gets too noisy for them."

I do think staff have some responsibility in how they present different needs and approaches to the rest of the children.

I think it's all wrong and agree that it's created this precious snowflake mentality.

WateryTart if a child is lashing out at others the school should be looking at why the child is doing this and consider that perhaps they are putting the child in situations they cannot cope with. Lashing out does not always mean bullying or deliberate violence.

That's probably true in a lot of cases. Nevertheless my point is that such behaviour shouldn't be rewarded.

"This week you were unkind/hurt .... so you will not be getting your treat."

With my son the only thing that works is earning stickers for good behaviour and not earning a sticker for unwanted behaviour. But if he meets his target number of stickers for the week his treat stands. If we said "you did x so now you don't get your treat" he wouldn't understand, he would say "but I met my target" and he'd be right wouldn't he?

Lots of the other children we know with similar needs are the same. You've got to move on from the bad stuff. Otherwise they feel worthless and useless they can't see the point any more. They crash and everybody loses.

so that it's not clear to the children what's going on

I 100% disagree with you.

It shouldn't be at all obvious to the children what's going on. I do not want that head tilt - "oh it's little gherkin and he's getting his special time" disguised as fake empathy, in fact it doesn't work well with DS either as he is paranoid about being different and any attempt to have a very obviously different behaviour plan that he doesn't concentrate on work and instead stresses about what people think of him.

And excuse me whilst I step aside and piss myself at this statement Non-nurture group kids are full of empathy because its all very clear and fair. Are you sure you're a teacher?!

It's no other child (or parents) business what the behaviour plan for my child is, a good teacher (and luckily we have one) will manage it. If the issue is that Johnny is feeling neglected then that needs to be addressed. You don't adjust a behaviour plan which is working (and if it isn't then it should get regularly reviewed) because JOhnny is a bit miffed.

You pay some attention to Johnny (if it's lacking and not just a typical 6 year old whinge) and you explain that, like the paralympics, everyone is judged against a benchmark suitable for their capabilities. That everyone is encouraged to be the best version of themselves that they can be.

These are primary aged children and even if their behaviour is down to poor parenting or innate terrible "naughtiness" then it is still beholden to the school to try to address that. Clear consequences can be useful in managing behaviour but without knowing the background of the child in question you really should butt out. If it impacts your child directly then you address that, clearly and firmly if necessary.

And say a little prayer to the gods of circumstance that the worst you're dealing with is a child griping about not getting a reward for behaving "normally"

If we said "you did x so now you don't get your treat" he wouldn't understand, he would say "but I met my target" and he'd be right wouldn't he?

I would say you get your treat if you meet your target, unless you hurt another DC. The other DCs need to see that it isn't tolerated.

Colours I am envious that the sticker charts work for your child! DS hates them (again draws attention to his difference), school EP explained to his teacher what I already knew - he is one of those percentage of people who is not motivated by explicit rewards or punishments, the only thing which works on him is approval (and to make it more difficult disapproval sends him into a downward spiral).

In some ways that doesn't make him more difficult to handle but its more time consuming and complex.

I can;t tell you how angry I am about the campaign that has been waged against him behind the scenes by the "good" children which is no doubt influencing my answers.

Sadly watery...he just wouldn't understand that...it's really not that simple. In that scenario he would think his treat had already gone, gone every week and there was no point in trying for stickers at all. You'd lose the whole system. It has to be tiny manageable chunks. I take your point about hurting but that needs to be dealt with at the time not a sanction at the end of the week.

In first rubbish school I had a teacher tell me that my son couldn't have a fiddle toy at carpet time because the other children would be jealous (paraphrasing but it's what she meant). I pointed out that with their superior cognitive abilities and emotional intelligence they should be able to understand that some people need things they don't.

I think it's all wrong and agree that it's created this precious snowflake mentality.

So let me get this straight.

The kids who have the privilege of a well adjusted home, with parents who value education and learning and boundaries (and are therefore are more likely to work with the school and not accept bad behaviour)... oh and no SEND issues, need to have awards given to them to make things fair?

Who are the special snowflakes again?

user0000000001 Isnt that for the person who used those names to discuss their choice. Ive given many examples on threads with names on like Timmy and Sophie but dont expect a pat on the back for it.

What, in the same way that we only expect sexist men to 'discuss their choice', rather than than everyone examine/discussing the patriarchy as a deeply inbuilt social construct?

In that scenario he would think his treat had already gone, gone every week and there was no point in trying for stickers at all. You'd lose the whole system. It has to be tiny manageable chunks.

Before the scheme was introduced the rule should be included. 12 stickers and you get a treat unless you hurt another child then you lose your stickers.

Sometimes the other children need to see that hurting is unacceptable whoever you are. A DC hurt by another has to know there will be consequences, imo.

Except then he would think his treat had gone every week so the whole system would fail, as she said.

THe reason they still got the reward was because they had still met the criteria for it.

Its clear people dont understand the nuances of this particular situation and a child with ASD.

I guess if these people are teachers and just see it as black and white it shows that there are indeed big gaps in understanding out there.

Sometimes the other children need to see that hurting is unacceptable whoever you are. A DC hurt by another has to know there will be consequences, imo.

No one is saying there shouldn't be consequences. But the consequences should be immediate. ..You're assuming all children have cause and effect thinking in the same way.

Think of it this way. If your 2 year old did something seriously wrong on a Monday, would you expect them to learn from a consequence handed out on a Friday?

And no... I know these children aren't 2. But neurologically, they're not far off it sometimes.

These are primary aged children and even if their behaviour is down to poor parenting or innate terrible "naughtiness" then it is still beholden to the school to try to address that.

It's still beholden to the school at secondary too. No teacher wants to deal with difficult behaviour in an unhelpful way which will not help the child to behave better. Why on earth would we? The trouble is, every child in the class who either has SEN or just challenging behaviour might require a slightly different approach to behaviour management. How feasible is that in a class of 30 while actually teaching your subject. When parents talk about teachers managing their child's behaviour, I just wonder if they have any idea of the practicalities of doing that, especially if there is no learning support assistant in the room (which is often the case at secondary).
In addition, because of the crisis in teacher recruitment and retention, there are loads of supply teachers in schools, who may not know the kids at all. They often come in at short notice and would not have the opportunity to study the learning plans for all the kids with special needs.

I do some supply. The usual class teacher is supposed to provide a seating plan with SEN flagged up, but it will just say 'dyslexia' or 'ASD' etc. And if the teacher is long-term off sick etc you may not even get that.

I guess if these people are teachers and just see it as black and white it shows that there are indeed big gaps in understanding out there.

Sometimes the other DCs in the class have to know that their needs are being met as well. No child physically hurt by another should see that child get a treat the next day. They matter every bit as much.

Yes clearly there are gaps in understanding.

I guess if these people are teachers and just see it as black and white it shows that there are indeed big gaps in understanding out there.

Teachers don't see it as black and white. They deal with a whole range the whole time. No general class teacher can understand your child's needs like you do, because they are not the parent or the educational psychologist or the 1:1 LSA. And they are teaching a whole class. It's not about black and white or a lack of understanding. It's about what's actually possible for a teacher to do. One thing a teacher can't do is make allowances for every bit of bad behaviour on the basis that every child might have an undiagnosed SEN.