School rewarding 8 yr olds for bad behaviour

[Pugwash2005]

My ds and his friends have been complaining because the 4 'naughty' children in their class have a tea party every Friday afternoon if they get over 12 'smileys' in a week, 2 'good' children are also picked to go along. There was an incident in school with one of the challenging pupils but he was still allowed to the party. Ds & I along with other mums think this party is making other children feel they are not rewarded for their good behaviour along with the fact that even when naughty these 4 kids get rewarded. Your opinions on this would be great

Most kids aged 6+ understand these coping tools very well. In reception, there is some jealousy still "Jaydon got star pupil for not biting anyone this week, I never bit anybody, not fair". But come year 2, most kids cottoned on and can probably see they work, too. Help your DS understand and be kind rather than gossiping with other mums about this.

Interesting that the two children who have been named in 'imaginary scenarios' are called Jaydon and Kyle.

Yabu. There will be a reason these children find it hard to make good choices, for example trauma or disability. My 6 year old understands that some children need extra help because they find certain things difficult or scary.

@shameful not all will think that, some parents will Think sun shines out of their kids arses no matter what. I was always ready to inform people about a certain child when they assume she was just being a pain. I don't know what the answer is though, should parents be told that certain children have issues. I honestly don't know how I would feel if it was my child.In the beginning I was non the wiser and just assume certain children where being just horrible. No explaination was given to the children who where 4 and 5 at the time. So it was hard for them to understand the reason for extra rewards. Like I was able to explain to my DS why a child got sticker chart in the morning as I spoke to the mum, it was a way of encouraging her to go to school and reason why she was so upset in morning so he used to help her find her stickers and used to comfort her making a fuss if her.

IgnoreMeEveryOtherReindeerDoes I would definitely be happy for the other children to be told/ have disabilities explained to them.

I think it helps out everyone in the long run.

It isn't so much the well behaved kids who are ignored for rewards, but have a good home life that I worry about. It is the well behaved unnoticed kids who have a shit home life, that really lose out. They get badly treated or ignored at home, and largely ignored at school, or certainly get little or no rewards.

Interesting that the two children who have been named in 'imaginary scenarios' are called Jaydon and Kyle.

I noticed that after Kyle... hence my 'implicit parent blaming' comment'!

happy school days, good friendships, good grades, future success and generally every chance of a happy life."

Does this mean that children who work hard all the time and do their best to succeed shouldn't gain material rewards also? Explaining the above to a 7rd old just wouldn't wash and quite frankly nor should it, as they get older yes of course this applies and they'll have the ability to fully understand the statement but it's extremely demoralising for them to strive for excellence and never be rewarded the same way the 'naughty' kids are, this doesn't mean you haven't taught your kids to be understanding and patient of others needs just that they deserve recognition for their hard work too.

As a retired teacher I can see both sides of this. I know that intervention groups can work and have a positive effect on classroom behaviour. It is sometimes hard for the other children to understand why "the naughty kids" get treats.

However, where I would draw the line would be in rewarding any child at the end of the week if he/she had been bullying or lashing out at other children. They also need to learn there are consequences.

There are plenty of children who behave poorly without any indication of SEN. I find it astonishing that people are so reluctant to believe that. I've taught some pretty much every day of my 20 year teaching career (except in one school, where there was almost no poor behaviour). Just as there are adults who behave poorly with no special needs.

WateryTart
With you on this.
If a child has worked really hard not to disrupt then the reward is fine.
Any violence or bullying towards somebody else should mean no reward for any child who does it. The approach taken after no reward can vary to meet the childs needs.

My 5 year old gets it. There's a "special" (his words) area at his school called Jigsaw. Children who have behavioural difficulties use that space mostly. It's really fun and rewards happenthere sometimes as well as a massive amount of social skills teaching (which often looks very much the same as fun, when done properly) Other students use the space occasionally.
He said it's so children who find behaving difficult can learn properly.

He's 5. If he can get it I don't see why some of the grown ups on this thread can't.

Eolian
That kind of view gets shouted down very quickly on MN by some people usually with "but how do you know they dont have needs" and 'teachers were so crap at dealing with my DCs needs so they probably have zero professional knowledge'. And if youre a teacher then you'll get lots of follow ups about how 'disturbing/worrying/concerning' it is that teachers even suggest that.

Simple. Some people have additional needs. Some people dont.

SmileEachDay
Your DC gets it because Jigsaw is clearly an alternative teaching environment. Just like what lots of the schools I've worked in have had.
There's no issue with that.

The issue is in the OP the 'naughty' kids are being told they can havr a tea party as a reward and then it's openes up to 2 of the other class who have to do more to get the required smileys. In the OP the situation is leading to confused kids feeling fed up that kids who display poor behaviour get more treats. And I would agree that's how it's being ran.

Nurture groups and teaching to meet needs etc is essential. But its bad form to start muddying the waters by giving the impression to the class that its also part of a behaviour system that other kids can earn their way into (when they see the same challenging kids being "rewarded" after disrupting learning).

Although I think it's used as a treat place for Golden Time too Maisy.

To be fair, he's only mentioned it twice. He's not a child who is obsessed with telling me how other children are doing. He'd rather argue the toss about how his way of doing a letter d is better than the "old way"

I take your point, but I also think it's ok for different needs to be met in different ways - we aren't all dealt the same hand, being fair is about equity rather than equality.

There is a boy in my son's class who is just 'naughty'. He's quite rude and generally badly behaved. He doesn't get the same treatment, or the same rewards system that my son gets. His behaviour is managed differently. The teachers aren't stupid - they're aware that some kids find some things difficult, and some of them just don't want to do it. Equally, my son is sometimes (often) naughty and in those situations he is punished. It's really not that complicated.

Asking that people consider the fact that some kids might have additional needs and shouldnt be thought of as naughty isnt saying all kids who are called naughty have additional needs.

Not sure why people cant grasp this concept. Its like logic 101.

Yet people keep banging on about "there are naughty kids". Very strange.

I think this explains it well.

Indeed, Maisy. I'm a secondary teacher. It's pretty difficult to teach a class of 30 teenagers which may contain several kids with a variety of SEN, some very bright, studious kids, and various kids who play up because they are basically just not interested in being in the lesson, are only interested in playing on their phone or gossiping with their friends and are rude and difficult if challenged. That's not SEN-related - it is fairly standard teenage behaviour. Some parents are very ready to dismiss teachers as 'shit' without having any realisation of how hard it is to actually maintain any kind of control over behaviour and deliver the curriculum at differentiated levels at the same time.

It's pretty clear that many parents on MN have a difficult enough time dealing with the behaviour of their one or two children or teenagers (whether or not there are SEN). Teachers are trained but not necessarily in managing SEN. And even if they were, it is well nigh impossible to use that training to its best effect while simultaneously trying to teach a class of 30.

And they all have to make 19 levels of progress in 372 different subjects Eol

LouKout
I agree with you.
The reality of this thread though is that quite a few posters refuse to accept what lots of us are saying.

1. Poor behaviour can be linked to special needs
2. Not all kids who display naughty behaviour have special needs.

Therefore those 2 groups need responding to differently.
We keep being met with "but any naughty behaviour is a need" and "but who are you to say a child has needs" and "thry probably have an undiagnosed need."
Certainly its that refusal to accept the obvious that's driving me mad (along with the usual teacher bashing).

Maisy - to a certain extent I agree that "all behaviour is a need" - not necessarily AEN but sometimes pastoral or social/emotional.

I'm secondary and apart from the children who are trying it on, and who are easily squishable with a good dose of teacher stare, the ones who persistently disrupt all have something else going on.

I don't have a solution, unfortunately...

SmileEachDay
Secondary here too.
Yes behaviour is a need that should be adressed. Unless theres an underlying reason i'm with you (and even then consistency with pastoral and social things is key)
Teacher stare, sanction and be relentlessly consistent with it. Where theres extra needs adapt accordingly.

I'm guessing from this thread most people commenting arent secondary and dont have secondary aged DC.

WateryTart if a child is lashing out at others the school should be looking at why the child is doing this and consider that perhaps they are putting the child in situations they cannot cope with. Lashing out does not always mean bullying or deliberate violence.

Spikeyball
But it can be bullying and violence (eg. 14 year old boy very violent when he didnt get his own way. Obviously im not going to put details on the net. Home would come in and tell us it was ok becasue thats just him and all the kids did that at home. Its just how life works. Theyd say this in front of him and then yell at staff for not letting him do what he wanted and say we were as bad as the police for always picking on him) That's all my points. Not all poor/violent behaviour stems from and SEND need.

When something does happen the school would look at the situation and adapt. It doesnt mean that childs should sitll be rewarded.The absense of a reward is not the same as sanctioning.