School rewarding 8 yr olds for bad behaviour

[Pugwash2005]

My ds and his friends have been complaining because the 4 'naughty' children in their class have a tea party every Friday afternoon if they get over 12 'smileys' in a week, 2 'good' children are also picked to go along. There was an incident in school with one of the challenging pupils but he was still allowed to the party. Ds & I along with other mums think this party is making other children feel they are not rewarded for their good behaviour along with the fact that even when naughty these 4 kids get rewarded. Your opinions on this would be great

Bad behaviour is not proof of SN

But we're not talking about "bad behaviour" are we? We're talking about childrne on a specific behaviour plan and unless all teachers everywhere (along with school EP's and SEN managers) are unable to tell the difference between children who are occasionally naughty for fun (or just because they're children) and those who need extra support as a result of identifiable additional needs.

I absolutely 100% agree with you that all children have the potential to be grim little buggers as it's the "good" boys in the class who are making my "naughty" boys life a misery. Thankfully after many years of complaining about it, someone in class appears to have blown the whistle on them and something might be done.

And to the little charmer above who equated all SN with needing a non-academic route. DS is on the 88 percentile for overall cognitive ability, currently achieving about 42%. But thankfully some of his tormentors are buggering off to private school so he will get some relief!

DS's particular behaviour plan has been very successful in managing his behaviour to everyone's benefit. It isn't beyond the wit of good schools/teachers/parents to keep the less behaviourally challenged pupils motivated too - OP if you don't think your school is doing a good job of this then that's what you need to tackle. Don't whine about how Johnny gets someothing your DS doesn't because I'd lay bets on the fact that your DS doesn't want to be everything else that goes along with being Johnny and you're not likely to be envious of Johnnys parents. It's a bit like moaning that Sheila gets to sit down all the time becasue she's in a wheelchair! Of course I don;t expect a child to get that - thats what we adults are supposed to teach them. Of there's an outside chance that a " naughty" child is being unfairly rewarded with "tea-time" but your's never going to know that so plaster on a smile and give them the benefit of the doubt.

You can't cherry pick just the one thing your DS likes about Johnny - you have to take the whole package - and it's your job to teach him that. And if you think he needs more encouragement then either give it to him or talk to the school about him being overlooked.

The naughty kids get far more rewards than the good kids

I have managed to explain to my non-NT child that some people need more encouragement than others and he can understand it - I'm baffled by the number of NT children (and adults it seems) that doesn't seem to be able to grasp that.

But thankfully some of his tormentors are buggering off to private school so he will get some relief!

Sorry that made me smile!

The lad that made DS life hell was also from a good family background wanted for nothing - he was 'treated' to a bag of sweets just after he had 3 other give DS a good beating - Child didn't have SEN just didn't have any discipline at home.

So yes some kids are plain naughty some kids get away with murder and some need additional help. Unfortunately the LA dictates they should all be treated equally in the same education system - trying to fit square pegs in round holes

Kewcumber ds and dd with ASD also exhibit more understanding of and empathy for differing needs than many as well. Dd has a surfeit of empathy in spite of the ASD diagnosis which causes all sorts of difficulties with a secondary school curriculum Dd is also top set and predicted top grades (A to A* equivalents) in spite of the ASD and the statement.

I think a lot of people see distressed behaviour as poor behaviour

That sums it up for my "naughty" child. Because there are some aspects of class he will actively participate in, this means he is choosing not to do the others. And when he is prompted to complete the tasks he ignores the LSAs which is rude and unacceptable (he used to tell them to go away, or write notes to say go away and that has stopped). And when he is gritting his teeth and growling, they take this as an act of aggression towards them. But he isn't, as by then he isn't really aware of what he is doing. He said he used to feel ill when he couldn't understand and his brain melts and it all went quiet. But now it gets angry. They also say because he is intelligent he is more than capable. But at the same time are unable to assess him academically at all and can't tell me whether he is ahead, behind or on target for any subject.

When I suggested he needed his work broken down so he could understand it, I was told they couldn't do that without outside help. But when outside help comes in, they ignore everything suggested.

Kewcumber - these kids do not all have Sen . They are just naughty and they are not all from bad backgrounds. Some just have lazy parents and act like brats which includes bullying behaviour. The school reward them more because it's easier than dealing with their rubbish behaviour.

They get things like ALWAYS being included in school trips and in things that require s few children from the class to participate. They are always included in school teams It's a very bad message to all the other children Sen or NT in my opinion and it's wrong. It's simply reinforcing the bad behaviour because they'll get to do fun stuff a day after kicking the shit out of another pupil.

It's because the school don't want them kicking off if they don't get to do this stuff. It's sick.

@brasy yes I keep telling myself that. My DS is an angel 98% of the time at school and when round someone else's house but at home for me he can reduce me to tears with his behaviour.

I think the system works in primary school like I said earlier my DS is really proud when he says such and such was really good today as it makes his classroom experience a much better atmosphere as the children have a few times had to leave the classroom whilst they manage a certain child. It's a shame the teacher at the time didn't explain the reason for it. I kind of had to wing it and try explain why the reason might be and not simply because they being bad on purpose.

In secondary school the lack of TA support means that it does effect the other children, as the teacher is focus on certain children usually it's at the cost of the quiet ones, but this is down to lack of funding.

Frayed it is so difficult when you have a school that lacks understanding at best or which is obstructive at worst Dd is in year nine and currently school is working for her, but to get it to work for her I have had to fight, complain and fight some more. I've taken advantage of the school's cock ups to tighten my grip and it works now because the school realise they have no more chances. What is sickening is that they support dd very well now so they could have done it from the off but they didn't whether that was because they were lazy, ignorant or ineffectual though I can't quite work out.

My ds does report back also on these kids behaviour and their rewards because it has a MASSIVE impact on his school day. It's shoved down the other kids throats on a daily basis.

There have been numerous times when all the children have had to leave the classroom so the teacher can deal with one throwing chairs and swearing. So yeah, he is invested in how they behave and talks about it because it affects his school life a huge amount.

Purpoise why don't you explain that some children find it harder to be good in school than others and some children need extra rewards and incentives to help them like I did when my children were smaller? Teach them empathy instead of envy (because I'm pretty sure neither you nor your dc would want what comes alongside the rewards and incentives) and you should both be feeling happier.

You have a shit school there porpoise suggest the rewards these children get is not the issue. And the general shitness the school is. You seem to be focussing on "naughty" children not on the rubbish school.

I am more sorry your DS has to go to such a bad school than that there are children you disapprove of that get rewards. I hope you have an alternative.

Astro55 apparently the school is about to call in the parent of some of the "good" kids for "a word", think they are about to be rather surprised that their child isn't quite a good as they think.

@Insanity that's all fair and good and I've done that with DS but in honesty when your child is also the target of such attacks what do you say, like I said it's easier to explain whilst little but come secondary school then what? My DD was bullied by group of boys no sens, to this day it still has had a knock on effect to her. They got rewarded

Kewcumber let's hope the parents take on board what they are told. I would be mortified to be told that my child had in any way made another child's school day miserable and even more so if that child had SN. Do you know the parents? Are you hopeful they will address it seriously?

Yes it is a shit school , we are in the process of getting ds moved. Their rewards system isn't helping anyone and I don't like my son being given the message that it's ok to beat the shit out of someone and get to still go on the school trip the next day.

I can't see how that is helping the naughty kid in question either.

1nsanityscatching it's "only" since beginning of Yr6 things started to unravel and then a dramatic downards spiral since January when the new teacher started. I'm glad you were able to salvage the situation for your DD but it sounds like it took a hell of a lot to get there.

We're at the absolute last chance stage now. DS2 is ok there but DS3 is due to start in September and is being assessed for ASD. He's very much a goody at nursery but it can change so quickly.

ignore what I would do would be to go for the school and make them accountable. They have a duty to keep your child safe and so I would be raising all incidents within their anti bullying policy and in secondary I would be involving the police.

Frayed yes it did take a safeguarding fail,a breech of confidentiality, formal complaints and disciplinary procedures but they have my measure now I choose dd's TAs, HT oversees dd's support personally,she goes into groups and with teachers that are best suited to her needs and they meet her statement and document it to my satisfaction. Whilst ever they do that dd seems to thrive and the school get no grief from me.

Frayed is there a parallel class ds could move into? In Primary dd always went into the class (decided at AR) where the teacher best suited her so she'd get the calm quiet ordered class rather than the noisy and spontaneous fun teacher.

I did @insanity many of times. She ended up missing lots of time of school and there way of dealing with it was to remove her from the classroom. It's too late now she has now left but damage is done. I'm going of course now as this is about kids that where just horrible and not about rewarding those with Sens issues. I really do think the teachers are great in primary school and that I know if my DS needed extra help with behaviour I would be eternally grateful and I've seen how one little girl has come such a long way because of it and her parents are so lovely but has been alienated by others. But on the flip side their are the children who get lost and unnoticed like my DD who are the quiet ones who try their best and are well behaved, yet go unnoticed, no recognition. I could appauld my DD and sing her praises all night long but they see it as well it's because your their parent it's different when someone else reconsises that. I can't blame anyone other than lack of funding of school and their hands being tied, and we live in such a bloody pc world that the focus is on the bad for fear of them being discriminated.

at the list of of failings. Although I'm not as shocked as I should be. The last couple of months have really tested me, I can't imagine what it was like for you going through all that.

No option of moving, only 1 class per year and DS2 is Yr5 and very able in the subject that causes DS1 the most angst, so it would be swapping one problem for another.

Going back to the rewards system, I said earlier I had a quiet word with DS2's teacher when DS2 was demotivated when the reward system changed and he couldn't achieve them (it was for improvements in effort and behaviour and he was doing extra work at home to no avail and feeling he couldn't do any more). Checking on the class messages I looked back and it was DS2's teacher who had noticed he was a bit subdued and contacted me to ask what was wrong, and then I told him. With the class being less disrupted his teacher was able to notice DS2 was being a little quiet.

I'm worried dd is going to have this thought of her when she starts in September.

I imagine these sorts of strategies will be used to help her cope.

To answer some points I've seen.

A) If you are worried your own children are seeing another child being awarded for 'bad' behaviour and that this will affect them, maybe you could try explaining to them.

How some children are different. How for some children just turning up at the school door is an achievement in itself. About disabilities and disadvantages.

B) No I imagine it won't cause problems in a future work place. Dd is extremely unlikely to be in employment (that's not defeatist, that's called being practice)

But yeah, you're kids will be the ones being 'disadvantaged' by not going to a fucking tea party.