To think the result of this rape trial is disgusting

[joystir59]

Man gets off completely Scot=free for raping a 12 year old girl, and that this result gives such a wrong message to men, in a world in which girls are never considered too young anyway. I'm enraged!
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-39305042

"Why are men titillated by the idea of having sex with children"

That seems a very unfair point to raise in a discussion of a young man who believed the girl he had sex with was 3 years younger than himself

Its a bit strange.

If you download porn of an 18 year old who likes she is 15 you can get prosecuted for that.

But it seems an adult can have sex with 15 year old who reasonably looks 18.

Above the age of 12, it seems the law is only concerned about how old someone looks and acts. Not actually how old they really are.

Yes southall this is true. Apparently the child porn conviction rate is v. low because you have to prove the child is underage. In this country you dont, the onus is on you to prove they are of age if they look younger.

We need to raise our girls to be strong, to take no crap, to be street wise and self respecting.

I think this girl's streetwiseness is part of the problem and her guardians need to be taken to task over this.

Girl power.

Are you 12? And in the 90's?

And a shout out to all men to be protective to women, and respectful.

I don't need a man to protect me. I earn respect, don't need to be given it and what is a 'shout out'?

Why are men titillated by the idea of having sex with children

Some men. A small minority, I'd assume but tarring men as peadophiles and rapists, illegalising one night stands and "sending prayers" gives a great insight into your black and white thinking. We don't live in a binary world. Well most of us don't. Perhaps you do OP?

Can I guess where you get your ideas from?

I tried to read some other books,
but I soon gave up on that
The paragraphs ain't numbered and they complicate the facts
I can't read Harry Potter 'cos they're worshipping false gods
and that Dumbledore's a poofter and that's bad, 'cos it's not good

Morality is written there in simple white and black
I feel sorry for you heathens, got to think about all that
Good is good and evil's bad and goats are good and pigs are crap
You'll find which one is which in the Good Book, 'cos it's good
And it's a book, and it's a book

Thinking out loud a bit, but how about a legal curfew for unsupervised under 16s?

Or we could just deal with neglectful parents/guardians who don't know where their 12-year-olds are at 4am?

This is a highly unusual case - the judge herself said so. Lessons need to be learned from it, but probably (imo) at a local level. Was the girl on the radar of SS? Was this a one-off occurrence? If it wasn't, why was she not known to SS? What has her parent/guardian reaction been? Is she, and any other child in their care, safe now? Then that needs to be widened out to see if there are bigger lesson to be learned on a national basis.

It is a very, very unusual case though and people making comparisons to the abuse of 5-year-olds need to remember that - no 5-year-old is ever going to look 20. Ever.

ow about a legal curfew for unsupervised under 16s

Highly unlikely this would be followed in this situation... it would also give an even more false sense of security around age.

no 5-year-old is ever going to look 20. Ever.

So where the cut off where "I honestly thought she was 16, she said she was" becomes implausible? So five is too young. An abused seven year old displaying inappropriately sexualised behaviours? Could she plausibly be 16? A pubescent ten year old with what some men call "grass on the pitch"? Could someone argue successfully that he thought he was 16?

Would you get rid of 'reasonable belief' altogether Errol?

I agree with Errol. It's about risk and people understanding that they may well be held accountable for their actions.

All this 'its my right to have a ons' It's nobody's right to have sex with anyone and this mindset in men is one of the issues. In a liberal society banning ons is not only a daft idea but is rather unworkable. But young people should be really careful.

All this trilling of 'If she'd been 13 it wouldn't have gone to court'. Not necessarily true, it just wouldn't have been rape it would have been a lesser offence. One that an accusation of will potentially have similar repercussions in relation to enhanced crbs if the young man wants to be a teacher/ nurse etc. So you can talk about 'reasonable belief' and I wouldn't necessarily advocate getting rid of it, but it doesn't stop situations having consequences in the longer term.

So where is the cut off where "I honestly thought she was 16, she said she was" becomes implausible?

Seems the older person has to decide based on looks and behaviour.
Then if they get it wrong a Judge/Jury will review the decision, based on what is reasonable, and decide how much jail time is appropriate based on all the facts available.

I remember in my early 20s, before IDs were so strictly enforced, male friends saying they now avoided certain nightclubs that targeted the uni crowd as they also tended to attract older looking school girls. 'jail bait' was the term they used.

I don't think a 24 year old would have got off as lightly as this 19 year old did.

Every newspaper article has led with how he's got away with rape. His life is going to be ruined when the taxi driver and the police all agreed she acted the age she told him she was

But the age she gave was that of a child. A drunk child.

Who the hell thinks it's OK to have sex with a drunk child you have just met?

"Some women should be ashamed of themselves"

I've missed the posters name because I'm so horrified that they are talking about 14 year olds in this context.

Likewise I am chilled that anyone - and lots of people on here plus this judge who in particular should know better - seem to think a 12 year old is capable of consent. Being able to join in enthusiastically for a child does not show consent! It shows inappropriate sexualised behaviour.

There was another article yesterday in the news about a man who phoned a BBC radio programme to say how much his eight year old daughter enjoyed it when he taped her. Does that show consent too if she was enthusiastic and participated?

Very different circumstances but shows the terrible dangers for our CHILDREN in the line of thinking so many of you are heading down.

Once again, rj I couldn't agree more. The 12 year old little girl is getting lost in this.

Rj and Smile.

That isn't what most people are saying. They are saying that he wasn't guilty of rape in the sense that so many circumstances suggested he wasn't trying to have sex with a young girl, he was as sure as one could reasonably be that she was legally old enough, as were others.

Do you really think the caller on the radio and the person in this case are the same? If so, there's no explaining it to you. If not, why mention it? Consent is a large part (only part?) of most rape cases. In statutory rape, it comes down to age. From that, the guilt is in no question and the sentencing takes in factors such as happened in this case.

The girl is "getting lost" because she isn't part of the discussion as to whether the man's 'punishment' was appropriate. Even the most vocal advocates of this man agree that the girl should not have been in this situation and needs help of some kind because, as you perfectly said, "it shows inappropriate sexualised behaviour".

Likewise I am chilled that anyone - and lots of people on here plus this judge who in particular should know better - seem to think a 12 year old is capable of consent. Being able to join in enthusiastically for a child does not show consent! It shows inappropriate sexualised behaviour.

Agree with this. Such a mindset also potentially adds to the shame felt by many victims of sexual abuse.

Login - there have been a worrying number of posters directly blaming the little girl and painting her as a manipulative temptress.
Mainly I think those posts have been removed.

he was as sure as one could reasonably be that she was legally old enough

While I fully accept that he didn't know she was 12, what is the probability of a girl who claims to be 16 and appears to be 16 at a taxi rank actually being 14 or 15? There was a very high chance she was underage.

Login a huge amount of posters have not focused on him and his punishment but on her. Some of the things I read last night which are now deleted were utterly appalling. Someone on Friday suggested that he had been raped. Don't know if it was this thread or another one but hopefully it's deleted.

The reason I mentioned the phone in is because it's part of the same logic. The 12 year old enjoyed it...the right year old enjoyed it...the logic leads down the same path. It puts the responsibility back in the hands of the child and not the adult.

And re punishment everyone seems to think it's either jail or nothing and ignore the huge range of disposals the judge could have used. Stating in the comments AND CONTRARY TO THE LAW that the girl did and could consent is extremely worrying.

NRTWT but my 12 year old daughter has been a fully formed woman's shape since she was 10. She's got a slightly smaller head to body ratio which means, with full make up, she could easily pass for 18. It takes my breath away, how a child can look so much older. They can, they do, it's a mine field.

I might add she does not wear full make up. We had a silly girly evening where she tried on my make.

Those of you with early developed daughters will, I'm sure, feel horror at the sentencing but understand how easily a child can seem so much older.

lots of people on here plus this judge who in particular should know better - seem to think a 12 year old is capable of consent

Whatever you may think, the judge was absolutely right on this point as the law stands. She correctly stated that consent is irrelevant as to guilt and stated why - the girl was too young to be able to consent. She then went on to consider sentencing where, like it or not, the fact that the girl consented is relevant. It meant that, in terms of the sentencing guidelines (which only apply to England & Wales but Scottish judges broadly follow the same process when setting sentence), none of the factors that would move this into a more serious sentencing category were present.

But the age she gave was that of a child. A drunk child

You may regard a 16-year old as a child. The law regards a 16-year old as an adult for most purposes and certainly allows them to consent to sex. You may not like it but there is absolutely nothing wrong with a 19-year old having sex with a 16-year old.

Her drunkenness is not really relevant in that no-one involved with the case thought she was too drunk to consent.

She then went on to consider sentencing where, like it or not, the fact that the girl consented is relevant

She didn't consent because she is 12. She appeared to consent which has some relevance. I think in this area lazy use of language causes a lot of confusion.

The appearance of consent is nevertheless very relevant to sentencing. There is an obvious difference between a man having sex with someone he believes is a fully consenting 16 year old, and a man having sex with someone he thinks is 16 who is clearly not consenting.

You may not like it but there is absolutely nothing wrong with a 19-year old having sex with a 16-year old.

Legally, no. Morally yes. Not the age gap itself but the manner in which he did it is morally wrong to me. Just because something is legal doesn't make the behaviour ok. However, I'm not one to think that just because someone is 16 they are suddenly fair game to be picked up for sex in a taxi queue by someone who is 19. Clearly I'm mostly on my own with that view and my expectations of 19 year olds are too high.

While I fully accept that he didn't know she was 12, what is the probability of a girl who claims to be 16 and appears to be 16 at a taxi rank actually being 14 or 15? There was a very high chance she was underage.

Yep and he didn't care. He wanted sex and I doubt much thought went into it past that. Everyone knows that loads of people lie about their ages as teens, but hey, he wanted sex, he didn't really think it through that she may have been lying about her age. No excuse for his irresponsibility, which turned out to be criminal.

any adult who participates in sex should be held responsible for the consequences their actions. If that means that an adult has sex with a young person who they don't know, and it turns out that person is a child, then they should be clear that it is a crime, and expect to be punished for it.
It is and he has been. What more do you want? Do you think the streets would be a safer place if this young man was sent to prison?

There are 2 people involved in this, the 19 year old boy and the 12 year old girl.
The 19 year old made a judgement that turned out to be wrong and he has been tried and punished.
The 12 year old should never have been there and another adult has some responsibility for how she was allowed to be.
If you want to reduce the number of 12 year olds having sex, then ensuring they are not out partying at 4am must be a key part of that.

If you download porn of an 18 year old who likes she is 15 you can get prosecuted for that
No, you can't
But it seems an adult can have sex with 15 year old who reasonably looks 18.
No, it really isn't that simple. The 15 year old would have to look and behave like they were older, and tell the adult that they were older. That judgement would also have to be reasonable to other adults.
It can't really be any other way unless you insist that men have to ask for ID before they have sex.
And when you say "adult", does that include the 15 yr old's 17 year old boyfriend?

All this 'its my right to have a ons' It's nobody's right to have sex with anyone and this mindset in men is one of the issues
As a woman, I have every right to have a ONS with another consenting adult.

my 12 year old daughter has been a fully formed woman's shape since she was 10. She's got a slightly smaller head to body ratio which means, with full make up, she could easily pass for 18..
I assume that you do your duty as a parent by not allowing her to go out partying in town at 4am.

U2 your moral judgement that a 19 year old shouldn't want to have sex with a 16 year old is irrelevant. It's legal. You can't condemn 19 year old men for wanting to have sex - that's a normal human drive. He believed that she wanted to have sex too. There was nothing that could have possibly indicated to him that she might have been 12. Even if the thought had crossed his mind that she might have been lying about her age, I doubt for one second that he could have believed her to be under 13. He had every reason to believe that her consent was informed and capable. But he didn't really have good reason to think that she might be under 16 anyway. In that environment, how many under 16 year olds would be allowed out drinking and partying. She fitted right in so he didn't question it.