To think the result of this rape trial is disgusting

[joystir59]

Man gets off completely Scot=free for raping a 12 year old girl, and that this result gives such a wrong message to men, in a world in which girls are never considered too young anyway. I'm enraged!
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-39305042

AssassinatedBeauty:

I understand you are disappointed, but I think it is fair. There is sufficient evidence to suggest he would have been in no doubt that she was old enough to sleep with him consensually.

Is it so shocking that I expect 19 year old men to show a bit of care over a 16 year old?

Yes. In my professional experience, 16 year old girls (and I realise we're moving away from 19 and 12 year olds) tend to be more mature than 19 year old boys. There is no magical age where people become mature enough to become adults.

Wasn't the man (boy) in this case led to believe she was legally an adult as opposed to 16? She'd been clubbing and drinking.

I don't think a 19 year old has a duty of care over a similarly aged or apparently similarly aged, sober, sexual partner besides ensuring (directly or indirectly) she's a willing participant.

I'm disappointed in our society that has resulted in the judge finding it reasonable to give an absolute discharge in this case. It means that adults are not expected to care enough about the possibility of their sexual partner being a child to be expected to modify their behaviour.

And so many people here agree with it.

I would be disgusted with my sons if they thought it was ok to take a 16 year old home to have sex with when they were 19. I would also think they were utter fools and irresponsible to believe the word of a '16 year old' when they are known to lie about their ages to get into places.

Sex is great fun, but it comes with a whole heap of responsibilities and having ONS with someone who claims they are 16 is irresponsible and I don't think the whole 'she lied about her age' is enough of an excuse to feel sorry for the adult man.

I'm echoing what other posters have said I realise, but I think It's worth mentioning. I don't think my parents were negligent, at 14 I was sneaking out to the local nightclub when they were sleeping. It was often on a week night and I has school the following day! They had no idea. I had fake I.D but only ever needed it on very rare occasions. I was short too-5'3 ish but being a bit overweight I probably looked as if I had curves and womanly features. I didn't even dress particularly grown up. Latest fashions or grungy stuff. I have been getting served for alcohol since I was 12/13. It's stricter now, and I have been asked for ID up until my mid thirties. If this girl had a womanly wardrobe, a mature conversation about her and was tall- it is totally feasible that she appeared 16 or over. And witnesses agree as did the judge.
I think it was the correct decision albeit a very sad thing to have happened.
I also remember when I was 14 I was attracted to older men and regularly chatted them up in clubs. In a club, It's normal to assume everyone there is at least 17/18. Had I had sex with one of those men (who were probably around mid-thirties!) I don't think it would have been rape.
I realised as a young adult how daft I was to put myself in those situations but as a child (young teen) it was all fun and 'cool' and I was the envy of other peers (and I had low self esteem, looking back).
I hope the girl gets some help (if she'll accept help properly, I'm inclined to think she may not be 'in the right place' for it) and I hope her guardians take measures to keep her safer. But I'm not going to jump to conclusions and assume they were negligent. Or have not tried their best to instill values and self worth into her. They may have been like mine, done their best and just had a daughter who was hungry for things meant for adults from a young age.
Of course it may be not the case , but while we don't know , I don't think we should be throwing accusations of neglect around.

A 19 and a 16 year old having sex isn't alarming to me, although in reality I would rather a 16 year old was still not interested in sex at all but we know thats often not the case.
He's done something very very bad , pleaded guilty and burst into tears when he found out. I don't think he deserves to be punished. I'm not sure about his been named and his face being a household image now, either.

I don't think a 19 year old has a duty of care over a similarly aged or apparently similarly aged, sober, sexual partner besides ensuring (directly or indirectly) she's a willing participant

Well we disagree. I don't think a 19 year old should be having a ONS with a 16 year old who he picked up from a taxi queue.

It's called being a decent person. An apparent 16 year old might be legal but they are still young and just out of childhood really. I would expect a 19 year old to think about that and not just with their sex organs.

If I buy stolen goods I can be prosecuted even if I claim I wasn't aware or suspicious in anyway
Only if it would be considered reasonable that you should have known or had a reasonable way of finding out.
If I accidentally knock someone over and harm them becuase I didn't see them step out behind another vehicle I can be prosecuted
Only if it was reasonable that you should have seen them
If I accidentally damage property though I felt it was an accident I can be prosecuted
They would have to prove negligence or intent. You can't be criminally prosecuted for an accident.

I don't see it curtailing women's sexual freedom if someone who says they are 16 to a random doesn't immediately get sex
You have just contradicted yourself. If there is some law or ID requirement in place that prevents a woman from being allowed to have sex with another consenting adult (random or not), then that is, by definition, curtailing women's sexual freedom.

The notion of requiring ID to have sex is absurd and unworkable. We have to rely on judgement. That doesn't mean that you can just use your incorrect judgement as an excuse, other people would have to make the same judgement for it to be believed that any reasonable person would make the same judgement.

How would any man be able to prove that he had been shown ID? Is he supposed to take a photo of it? Does have a photo of someone's ID suggest she gave consent? It is a truly ridiculous suggestion.

ID is indeed a ridiculous suggestion. The law does not need to change.

I know that the judge felt it reasonable that he believed she was 16, and in our current society/culture then that's all the care and responsibility expected of adults. It might be "fair" according to the law, but I find it depressing, only expecting a very bare minimum of civil behaviour from adults. I would like a shift in attitude so that very much more care is expected of an adult in this situation, and much more opprobrium expected if they fall short. But clearly expecting any better from adults is pointless.

Oh my god.

We ALL have a duty of care over to all our sexual partners

RJnomore1:

First I've heard of it.

I'm finding it far too upsetting and infuriating. I'm gonna take a break for now.

I'm genuinely shocked at the sheer number of mners (most of whom are probably parents) who think this is ok. It's not.

Well you've heard of it now trifle

We ALL have a duty of care over to all our sexual partners

Like what? If you have a contagious STD then warning them or taking precautions. Taking equal responsibility for a pregnancy. I can't really see what duty we have besides that.

I've ignored consent as it's assumed (for me) when discussing "partners". Ages and appropriateness of the relationship are removed from the equation.

What duty of care do you feel for a ONS (new acronym for me)? pay for the bus fare home? Provide a nutritious breakfast?

edit: warning and taking...

RJnomore1:

What does it mean in practical terms?

Sadly, I don't think this particular 19yr old damaged or traumatised this particular 12yr old. He shouldn't be held solely responsible for the trauma her behaviour and background seem to point to. That a 12yr old can be in this situation is a symptom of problems that existed before he met her.

I normally have zero sympathy with people who are careless about consent. I have sympathy in this case.

A rapists career success has NOTHING to do with rape

The judge didn't say it did and there is absolutely no evidence in the sentence she actually handed down to suggest that she applied any adjustment due to his career success.

Like ensuring that we do not cause them harm in pursuit of our own pleasure. Physical or emotional.

It's simple basic human decency and I'm shocked to think that people would actively defend their right to use others bodies as playthings without a regard to their wellbeing.

A very intelligent person once said to me the problem is that as a society we have forgotten how to take care of each other.

RJnomore1:

Okay, but there is a difference between poor behaviour and poor behaviour for which you can be held accountable. 'Duty of care' indicates the latter.

See, the issue for me is a lot of people on this thread are seeing it as a black and white issue when it isn't at all. If you've had any law training you'll realise that the mitigating factors in this case meant it would be very unfair to hand down a custodial sentence.

The age of consent argument is an interesting one and I think the law needs looking at in that regard. There are varying ages for things and I think that's what's confusing for people. E.g. you can get married at 16 but if you sent a sexual image to your husband, he could be prosecuted on CSA charges.

I think either raising the age of consent to 18 (so it's the same for drinking, driving etc - all the 'adult' things) or lowering everything to 16 (not a good idea, in my opinion) is the only way forward.

I also think we need Romeo and Juliet laws like they have in the US. I don't see why two people in a loving relationship should be prosecuted because one partner is 16years and 1 day and the other is 15yrs and 364 days old. There needs to be some sort of lee-way. I know in the US they have these laws and they aren't abused because there needs to be evidence that it's actually a relationship, not just a casual thing. It's stopped a lot of people being prosecuted by parents who are angry about their son/daughter's choice of partner.

As a teacher myself I deal with stuff like this on a daily basis. I hope the victim gets the support she needs because to me, it's obvious that there is a failing in her support network somewhere, or else she would not be out at 4am in a city centre drunk.

Duty of care is a legal term but it also implies human decency. We have moral obligations which at times go beyond our legal ones.

Right decision made. I think parents need to be looked at for neglect tbh. Age 12 in those circumstances

Having been on a jury for a similar type of case, I can completely understand how he was found not guilty. You have to absolutely ascertain that he KNEW she was underage.
He clearly didn't. She was out drinking, had been easily served at a bar, the witnesses thought she was significantly older. She was willing, and experienced.
It is alarming that girls so young are able to be in such a situation. Some young girls appear a lot older, but their parents/ carers must surely take some responsibility in managing their behaviour. The man didn't collect her in her school uniform! I bet he feels as sickened as the rest of us.

And AGAIN people assuming there are parents.

I'm genuinely shocked at the sheer number of mners (most of whom are probably parents) who think this is ok. It's not.

Its definitely not ok this happened.
But until you can come up with a fast and fool proof age verification system. I think it is unfair to punish this guy for an honest mistake.