Who IBU - weekend activity clash

[KanyesVest]

Dh and I are having an argument about activities on Sunday morning.

Dh's position: there is a coding club at dd's school which we would both like her to attend and which she would like to go to. It is on Sunday at 11am. Dh would like to volunteer as a parent leader at the club. Dh has a personal and professional interested in coding and he could bring a lot to it (and they desperately need volunteers). The club also meets on a mid week evening but too late for dd (finishes at 8.30pm, she's in bed by 7.30) but will suit her in a couple of years. Dd does not have to join the club now (lots of children start it at 9/10, she's 7) and dh could volunteer without her being involved. He says it's the only way he can be involved in her school life (I do 99% drop off/pick up, meetings, etc) There are other branches of the coding club they could attend, on other days/times (eg Saturday pm) but they would not be connected to the school so dh doesn't want to go to one of them.

My position: I go to a church service at 10.30 on Sunday morning and I bring the children with me. I have been attending for about 8 years. Dh chooses not to come but he did fully agree to having the dc welcomed into the church as babies and that we would go to services as a family. I am involved in the Sunday school and the children go to this while the service is on. The church I attend has only one service each week. There is no other option, it's this service or none. Dd always complains about coming but enjoys it when she's there. I admit to being sporadic in my attendance at times, but I probably average twice a month over the year.

The dilemma: which activity will dd go to? I suggested an every second week attendance at each, but the coding club has a huge waiting list and it wouldn't be fair for dd not to fully use her place, which I totally understand. I have also suggested they attend a different club but dh wants some sort of school engagement for himself. I suggested that there are plenty of other volunteer vacancies in the school if he's that keen to be involved but he isn't interested in doing anything else at the school.

So, who's being unreasonable? And who wins, god or the machine?

Italian no living in the UK doesn't make you a Christian, any more than it makes you a white male. Christianity is the privileged religion though, and the issues around passing on Jewish cultural heritage to children in the UK to passing on Christian cultural heritage are therefore not comparable. You asked whether the two things were different. The answer, very clearly, is of course they are!

Sirzy "Whether a 7 year old attends church or not isn't going to be a massive deciding factor in their later faith ..." I tent to agree with you to some extent although I still think parents have a right to take kids to church.

Quite a lot of people do find faith in later life, even if from a Christian home they 'go away from it for a number of years' so to speak.

5moreminutes "You asked whether the two things were different. The answer, very clearly, is of course they are!"

They are to you because you are looking at them through your own lens of concern for 'privilege' (which I understand) and what you think is key here, which is fine of course. .

However, to me religion is religion and interestingly the Jewish faith is not primary passed on through the synagogue but rather in the home and through the mother as a birth right. Hence my cousin's children are Jewish because his wife is. The primary way Christian faith is experienced is through the fellowship of the church (and to some extent of course by private Christian life and family etc maybe depending on which bit of it you are part of).

However, if we take Judaism and Christianity as two systems of religious belief, then I think it is perfectly fair to argue that just as as family wish to pass on their Jewish beliefs to their family then a Christian family may wish to do this with their kids.

They will not for a second feel the state is able to do this or would wish the state to do it. Just being in the UK doesn't enable a person to find Christian faith as the experience of practicing it as for most it is about being part of that community.

Of course communities for different countries and especially the Jews in the diaspora will feel a special sense of community but I know of Christian groups of bikers or those on the margins of society etc who have their own sense of their Christian identity.

Anyway, it is lovely to chat, I must go to work, it's been nice talking to you all.

OP I hope you decide what to do.

Italian

I'm not prejudiced as I'm reasonably well educated and read on the subject so there are no preconceived ideas or lack of information on which my ideas are based.

It also isn't against Christians especially. I recently wrote a piece about Buddhism and its terrible effects on children with SEN in Asia.

Perhaps it would have been better to say that in much of the Western world, people who say they are religious are becoming fewer and fewer. Christianity in the US and Europe is dying or shifting toward developing countries where numbers are growing slightly. So, shrinking figures in developed countries with better education - improving in places with poor education... interesting. You can make your own conclusions as to that.

I actually have more respect for those who take the bible as the word of god as opposed to those who cherry pick it, tell me that stories like passover, Lot or Genesis' creation story are metaphors or taken out of context. It is either a way to live your life and believe or it isn't.

I'm not sure how you can call my beliefs old fashioned (well, I believe the world is more than 6,000 years old, if that's what you mean) when you believe in the bible and jesus and resurrection.

lots of people find faith as adults

A tiny fraction of the population of the UK.

I am sorry you have such a negative view of faith

It's the only sane and rational standpoint. Don't be sorry.

I'm a feminist, interested in science

Good for you but "Science adjusts its views based on what's
observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved."

If you can tell me how feminism and science marries with one of my most quoted passages from the bible then I'll be a very happy lady who's learnt a lot.

But if [a girl wasn't a virgin on her wedding night] and evidence of the girl's virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her father’s house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against God’s people by her unchasteness in her father's house.

"I'm not prejudiced as I'm reasonably well educated and read on the subject so there are no preconceived ideas or lack of information on which my ideas are based."

Then why did you say that being a Christian might be about disliking 'foreigners' or was that a joke?

"You can make your own conclusions as to that." I am not sure I need to.

"I'm not sure how you can call my beliefs old fashioned (well, I believe the world is more than 6,000 years old, if that's what you mean) when you believe in the bible and jesus and resurrection."

because you seem to assume (by that post) that all Christians believe in a literal 6 day creation story that happened 6,000 years ago (many do not) so thta makes me think your ideas about faith are a bit old fashioned but excuse me if they are not.

Yes, indeed lots of things in the Bible I don't agree with, lots of things I can't and won't defend but you've already said you don't like cherry pickers and would have more faith for someone who believed it all hook, line and sinker (my choice of words).

I know that faith is a real thing that I experience, that does change and adapt with time, that does spur me on to do good things, that does bring me into community with my neighbors, that does give me hope in dark times, that does encourage me to think, that does value me as a woman and a feminist, that does adapt to experiences and evidence in my life. But I cannot prove it to you, and that is because it is 'faith'.

I also fully recognize the Bible is full of strange things, disturbing things, I could find a mess of quotes too, things that are not a pattern for life. It has some wisdom to share and my faith has adapted with my understanding. Anyway, we will not agree so I respect your views, and wish you well.

Then why did you say that being a Christian might be about disliking 'foreigners' or was that a joke?

The bible, as a guide for christians to live their life by, is absolutely full of racism, hatred for another tribe, killing those of other religions, infanticide of another faith, killing, raping and murdering a whole town of people on god's direct instructions "[Kill the men and boys] But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves"

because you seem to assume (by that post) that all Christians believe in a literal 6 day creation story that happened 6,000 years ago

I understand that it could be a metaphor. A metaphor seems to be a strange reason to send your son to earth to die for everyone to absolve themselves of Eve's sins though. Not that it would make much sense if it were supposed to be a true story!

lots of things I can't and won't defend

You don't have to, of course. That's because lots of it is indefensible, disgusting, horrifying. It brings to mind the playing chess with a pigeon meme.

It has some wisdom to share and my faith has adapted with my understanding.

Yes, in amongst truly disgusting passages and ideas there can be inspiring quotes.

"And I can fight only for something that I love, love only what I respect, and respect only what I at least know."

"Think Thousand times before taking a decision But - After taking decision never turn back even if you get Thousand difficulties!"

"It's possible to satisfy the needs of the inner life by an intimate communion with nature, or by knowledge of the past."

I haven't RTFT but I vote for coding, it will be such a valuable skill for your DD and nice that she gets to attend with her dad. Also, with a skill like coding the earlier you start (age wise) the better.

But I am rather anti-church, so the other activity would always get my vote.

Another vote for coding here, she has her whole life to go to church if she wants to

Tums I don't think you really think I hate 'foreigners' because of a narrative in the Bible. I think it was your way of introducing more of your ideas in The Bible.

I think your desire to see it all as literal is clouding your judgement of what people take from religion.

Presumably, the ideal would be that humans evolved as a species with no religion, but that did not happen. Why do you think that did not happened?

I think because many people need something more than this life, they feel the call of it and I think it is real, but I won't defend the Bible, not because of your assertions of what I could or could not do, because I choose not to.

Plus Tums your random quotes are getting annoying, so I won't engage with you any further, I do not want to derail the OP's thread.

Good luck OP.

Coding. It's something your daughter enjoys and wants to do and it will behold for her to have an activity with her dad

Be good not behold...

I think Tums is probably doing AS level religious studies and the B minus s/he got on his/ her essay on Buddhism has gone to his or her head. It is a bit annoying when people pop onto a thread and loudly label themselves intelligent and educated and then make a sensible argument look silly by presenting it in a garbled, half digested but somehow pompous way... Are the quotations from a set text?

Italian

Presumably, the ideal would be that humans evolved as a species with no religion, but that did not happen. Why do you think that did not happened?

Because the men in charge needed a way to control the masses. The best way to do that is religion. If that doesn't work then through fear of outsiders (Goebbels, Bush, Bush, Blair, Trump).

5minutes

Ah, God bless your attempt to be rude. You can do better, surely.

The quotations were a mixture of Mein Kampf and The Bible.

I would allow my dc to do whichever they preferred. I would be peeved if I had been taking them to karate for several years and their dad wanted to suddenly take them to gymnastics during the same time slot though. But ultimately I would respect their decision. I actually think the fact your activity is the church makes it a bit easier as religion is not confined to a Sunday morning. Plus the added bonus of coding not running in the holidays means she can still attend church, granted just not as often as you would like.

Yes Tums but you presumably found them in your AS level text book.

Your posts are just garbled regurgitation of strings of quotations. You are weakening the argument you think you are presenting, which is annoying to people who agree that OP's DD should be allowed to choose for herself whether to go to her mother's preferred Sunday club or her father's...

That was much better.

AS levels were well after my time though.

Go on, say something about me being old...

I'm old myself Tums - I don't think you are.

At 7 we still make almost all our decisions for our kids. They don; get to decide if they stay in education or get a job, get married or any of the big things, obviously but for most of us we also do not allow them to decide how many sweets they can eat, whether veg is on or off the menu, what time they go to bed, etc etc.

We help them choose how to decorate their rooms, if they have any input at all. We most likely choose their clothes, or at least some of them, we monitor and control their TV and internet use, we set their time to get up, we help to select their activities and who they will see outside school and when (usually by consultation with them but not always), we choose when and where to see wider family, we choose where they will live and what school they will go to....

I can't believe that religion would not come into that long list of all the things we partially or wholly control for our 7 year olds.

Thanks for responding. I see where you're coming from, I guess I just have a different approach.

I do make the important decisions for my dd, where I feel that it will have a significant impact on her future. However, I let her make decisions about what clothes she likes, how to decorate her room or what clubs to do etc, because none of these will have a major bearing on her future.

I honestly can't see why it would matter in future whether she attends church at the age of 7 or not. If she decides when she is older that she is a believer, then she can go back to church at any time. If she decides that she isn't a believer, then that's fine too.

I never saw religious belief as something that I would control for my dd. We have always talked openly about what different people believe, and I have allowed her to reach her own conclusions.

I don't see the problem with letting the DD choose. It's not like it's a permanent decision, she can always change her mind later.