Who IBU - weekend activity clash

[KanyesVest]

Dh and I are having an argument about activities on Sunday morning.

Dh's position: there is a coding club at dd's school which we would both like her to attend and which she would like to go to. It is on Sunday at 11am. Dh would like to volunteer as a parent leader at the club. Dh has a personal and professional interested in coding and he could bring a lot to it (and they desperately need volunteers). The club also meets on a mid week evening but too late for dd (finishes at 8.30pm, she's in bed by 7.30) but will suit her in a couple of years. Dd does not have to join the club now (lots of children start it at 9/10, she's 7) and dh could volunteer without her being involved. He says it's the only way he can be involved in her school life (I do 99% drop off/pick up, meetings, etc) There are other branches of the coding club they could attend, on other days/times (eg Saturday pm) but they would not be connected to the school so dh doesn't want to go to one of them.

My position: I go to a church service at 10.30 on Sunday morning and I bring the children with me. I have been attending for about 8 years. Dh chooses not to come but he did fully agree to having the dc welcomed into the church as babies and that we would go to services as a family. I am involved in the Sunday school and the children go to this while the service is on. The church I attend has only one service each week. There is no other option, it's this service or none. Dd always complains about coming but enjoys it when she's there. I admit to being sporadic in my attendance at times, but I probably average twice a month over the year.

The dilemma: which activity will dd go to? I suggested an every second week attendance at each, but the coding club has a huge waiting list and it wouldn't be fair for dd not to fully use her place, which I totally understand. I have also suggested they attend a different club but dh wants some sort of school engagement for himself. I suggested that there are plenty of other volunteer vacancies in the school if he's that keen to be involved but he isn't interested in doing anything else at the school.

So, who's being unreasonable? And who wins, god or the machine?

If she goes to Sunday School instead of even attending the service, then what is the issue with her going to coding? As she doesn't attend the service anyways iyswim

I don't understand why you are turning this into you vs DH instead of just asking your daughter what she wants to do?!

I would allow her to go to coding club. FWIW I'm a committed member of our church, on the leadership team, preach and run the youth work but my children don't come every week (they have sporting activities). They are still very much part of the church family and come to other events, church weekends away etc.

Don't confine God to an act of corporate worship on a Sunday morning.

If it were a club you went to the majority of the answers would say yanbu. It's only because it's church people are saying you are.

I disagree. If it was a club, I think the majority of posters would say that dd gets to choose. The fact that it's church makes no difference in my mind - she has had an introduction to the OP's religion, but now she should be allowed to choose what she wants to do.

it sounds deadly boring to me but anyway...

you wouldn't be on the internet without it!

I really can't see any dilemma apart from mother wanting to overrule father. Why not let the child decide?

This really isn't an issue at all, it's easy - you continue to attend church sporadically, as is your wish, and your DD and DH attend coding club, as is their wish.
I was basically emotionally blackmailed to attend church for years under the guise of "you don't have to come, but it's important to me and I'd really like you to come" - it's a thoroughly shit thing to do to a child. I adore my mom and know she was trying to give us a sort of spiritual framework but I hated it and hated her at the time for making me go. All it achieved is to make me resentful and suspicious of organised religion and a dyed-in-the-wool atheist. As other people have said, faith is a personal thing, keep it to yourself.
My DH is a hardcore techie and is gradually teaching DD age 8 coding - she loves it and seem to have a natural affinity/understanding which escapes me. DH travels a lot for work so wouldn't be able to volunteer like your DH wants so - but if he did I imagine my DD would be very proud to have Dad at school and I'd be very pleased because it's so good for children when parents are invested and involved in their education/development. My DH (who seriously knows about this sort of thing) firmly believes that children should learn coding so they can understand the technology around them and create their own technology - because if you can't understand tech then you're just a powerless end-user (which is bad, apparently).

SharkBastard Faith canhavr a huge part in people's lives. Often for good. Why would anyone deny a mother the chance to share that with their kids.

1. A useful life skill, exercising the brain, making friends, bonding with her Dad and encouraging an interest in a field not many women have.

1. Indoctrination of children (and some adults) and listening to stories glorifying a sexist, racist, murderous cunt.

I know which one wins for me.

Sorry that should say Faith can have.

ShelaghTurner not all responders have said one thing! Some have said church.

BoobleMcB the child goes to the children's activity, which she enjoys. This is something where kids learn. I don't know many churches where kids sit through the service. The children's activity I'd age appropriate.

Faith can provide another element that helps people transcend some of the areas of life that can be so stressful. I know many have had bad experiences of religion but some have had really good ones too. It really depends what the experience is like.

The OP says her dd enjoys it while there. Seven is too young to make this choice for herself, IMHO.

Coding club definitely YABU

"SharkBastard Faith canhavr a huge part in people's lives. Often for good. Why would anyone deny a mother the chance to share that with their kids."

Nobody's suggesting not sharing her faith with her kids. Just not at 10.30 on Sundays. There are plenty more hours in the week.

Italiangreyhound have you read the posts from the multiple different people on the thread who were made or emotionally blackmailed into church attendance with their mothers (almost always mothers, sometimes parents) and have gained nothing from it but a significant dislike of organised religion and generally staunch atheism or perhaps agnosticism. Additionally the post from the committed church goer who points out that faith should not be confined to "one act of corporate worship on a Sunday morning".

The OP doesn't even bother going to church half the time, so it seems to be more about keeping Sunday mornings free in case she feels like dragging her DD to Sunday school.

The child complains about having to go to Sundays school - she's being taken there because it is her mother's hobby. By 7 she should get a say - she's been well and truly introduced" to her mother's church over seven long years - apparently she is not going to be given free choice of Sunday activity (karate? swimming? a lie in? a morning in front of cbbc?) so she should at least be allowed to choose whether to give her dad's hobby a try, having been given no choice about joining in with her mum's since babyhood.

She can still go to church twelve Sundays a year, as coding club won't run in the holidays - more than enough to keep her in contact with her mother's faith especially given she complains about having to go to Sunday school.

"I don't understand why you are turning this into you vs DH instead of just asking your daughter what she wants to do?!"

Because she has already said that the dd would choose to go with her father.

Seven is too young to make this choice for herself, IMHO.

Not being snarky, but why?

Faith canhavr a huge part in people's lives. Often for good. Why would anyone deny a mother the chance to share that with their kids.

Because it's indoctrination.

I went to a Catholic school for 11 years. Mass twice a week from the age of four. Constant Bible thumping from my grandmother who refused to accept "heathen" grandchildren. No surprise that I turned out an atheist and anti-theist.

Coding club. If you were really bothered about the church, I'm sure you could find another one with services at a different time. Otherwise, like people say she can do church in the holidays.

5moreminutes of course faith is not confined to one act of worship on a Sunday morning. But part of faith for many people is being part of a worshiping community. That is something you get by going and being part of something regularly.

The difference for some of us is that 36 years later I am still in touch with some of the people I was in youth group with and so is my sister even though she has not continued in the Christian faith (and a different church to me so a different set of people). I'm not in touch with anyone else, except family, from any school or club I went to at that time.

Of course it is horrible that people have had bad experiences and that those experiences put them off faith for life. I am not for a second defending those experiences.

I clearly commented that people would have different experiences.

However, in this country we have freedom of faith and freedom to share our faith with our children/educate them etc.

Countries that do not allow this are places like Communist China and North Korea. Where children are not allowed legally officially to be taken to Sunday school (as far as I am aware) that's in China (not saying it doesn't happen) and where any kind of faith is illegal, that's in North Korea.

So in this country we have freedom to express our faith and pass it on, or attempt to, with our kids.

The mum wishes to do this and I think that is right for her to do. And I would defend the dad if he were wanting to do this.

Of course you can pray anytime any place anywhere, but you can only be part of a community when they meet. And to be honest that is almost always on a Sunday morning at around the same sort of time.

OP there are fresh expressions of church that crop up at other times and on different days of the week and you may wish to explore these in case things change.

www.freshexpressions.org.uk/

Of course parents will not always act in the best interests of their children and I am not defending that.

I am defending a parents right to educate their child in their faith and allow them to experience the community that goes with it.

If the mum were Jewish and taking her child to Saturday school at a synagogue and her non-Jewish husband were interfering with that I am pretty sure the majority would be saying that it was important to keep her daughter's cultural heritage alive.

Does anyone feel this is different?

Why is this different if anyone feels it is?

Happydappy99 "...my children don't come every week (they have sporting activities). They are still very much part of the church family and come to other events, church weekends away etc."

Do you have a partner, are they in the church too or are you parenting alone and are your kids older than 7?

You don;t need to answer but I think it is easier to include kids in wider church if you have a partner who is involved or if you parent alone. Having a partner who does not get involved in church makes it harder to get along to things and makes it seem more of an 'issue', taking sides, who goes to what, IMHO.

Plus if kids are older, old enough to be left alone, then again it is different from a quite young child, which I think 7 is.

Does anyone feel this is different?

For the sake of argument, I'll assume we're talking about the UK.

On one hand, indoctrination is indoctrination. Some religions pretend to be better than others but they're all pretty disgusting and therefore, they are no different. The Jewish mother shouldn't be telling her daughter the terrible 'lessons' the torah teaches any more than the christian mother.

On the other hand, there is a cultural aspect to judaism (in the UK) which doesn't have the same implications for christians. For starters, it's a christian (whatever that means - hating foreigners?) country where christmas and easter are advertised and celebrated in some form near enough everywhere. Jewish people are still much more likely to marry within their faith and have friendships within a community of those who identify as jewish, even if they don't actively pursue their religion. One of the many abhorrent aspects of christianity is original sin: the belief that unbaptised children have their own special hell should they die. Judaism believes are born pure but may sin in their lives. They get a bonus point for that.

Overall, all religion is bad. Happily it's dying out. Yes, we have freedom to follow your religious beliefs (within the law) but the best bit is, legislation wasn't needed to make religion obsolete and currenly in its death throes. Instead we've had feminism, anti-discrimination laws, science and a realisation that it's better to be good for goods sake rather than because of a fear of eternal damnation.

Italiangreyhound

There's also a lot to be said for sowing the seed of religion whilst they're nice and young.

If you approached an adult who had never heard of religion but had been to university, got good grades etc and then tried to 'sell' him the idea of christianity as a) good b) a real thing, then you would never manage.

Italiangreyhound

"If the mum were Jewish and taking her child to Saturday school at a synagogue and her non-Jewish husband were interfering with that I am pretty sure the majority would be saying that it was important to keep her daughter's cultural heritage alive.

Does anyone feel this is different?

Why is this different if anyone feels it is?"

It is indeed different.

It is different because of Christian privilege in the UK. An act of broadly Christian worship is compulsory in even non church schools in the UK. Christian norms and values seep through and dominate every aspect of British society.

Christianity is the privilege and dominant religion in the UK and doesn't need defending or protecting any more than white male privilege does.

It is so enormously disingenuous when Christians try to pretend this all pervasive entrenched privilege doesn't exist and to frame themselves as some kind of embattled minority group, which is infact the polar opposite of the truth.

The kid wants to go with her dad so she should go with her dad. There's no need for more debate, surely?

Brokenbiscuit "Seven is too young to make this choice for herself, IMHO.

Not being snarky, but why?"

At 7 we still make almost all our decisions for our kids. They don; get to decide if they stay in education or get a job, get married or any of the big things, obviously but for most of us we also do not allow them to decide how many sweets they can eat, whether veg is on or off the menu, what time they go to bed, etc etc.

We help them choose how to decorate their rooms, if they have any input at all. We most likely choose their clothes, or at least some of them, we monitor and control their TV and internet use, we set their time to get up, we help to select their activities and who they will see outside school and when (usually by consultation with them but not always), we choose when and where to see wider family, we choose where they will live and what school they will go to....

I can't believe that religion would not come into that long list of all the things we partially or wholly control for our 7 year olds.

I also think many parents choose things based on what they think is right, not all obviously.

Nowadays most children's work in churches involves lots of fun and activities and is not, in my experience (I help in Sunday Club) pushy.

I know people here will be talking about experiences 20, 30, 40 years ago and I can't say what experiences they had and I am not defending what happened to posters here.

SuperBeagle I am sorry you had that experience. I am not defending that experience.

TumsMet I am a Christian, I don't hate 'foreigners'. But you prejudiced against Christians comes across loud and clear.
"the belief that unbaptised children have their own special hell should they die." This is not a view shared by all Christians, you may have been brought up with this but it is not something all Christians would agree with. Of course, I do not agree with this views, and agree it is abhorrent.

"Overall, all religion is bad. Happily it's dying out." No idea where you get this ideas from. But continue with that belief it it makes you happy.

" Instead we've had feminism, anti-discrimination laws, science and a realisation that it's better to be good for goods sake rather than because of a fear of eternal damnation."

I'm a feminist, interested in science, very much delighted with anti-discrimination laws and love anyone being good for the sake of being good. I think your views are very wrapped up in an old fashioned idea of faith but as I say believe as you will.

"If you approached an adult who had never heard of religion but had been to university, got good grades etc and then tried to 'sell' him the idea of christianity as a) good b) a real thing, then you would never manage."

This is, as you may guess, total rubbish, lots of people find faith as adults. I didn't start going to church until I was 17 and became a Christian at 18. My family were not at all religious. My husband found faith in his 20s.

In some ways it is easier to find faith as an adult as you don''t have negative experiences of church etc to look back on. But I still believe parts have a right to share their faith with their kids. I am sorry you have such a negative view of faith but of course I would defend your right to hold that view as I do believe in freedom of belief.

Isn't the Jesuit motto something along the lines of "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man" - the OP has done the key seven years of religious immersion, time to let her DD have some freedom to choose which parent's hobby she'd prefer to spend her Sunday mornings doing.

OP still gets the best deal, having had 7 years of taking her to church any week she could be bothered to go, and still having 12-13 Sundays per year (plus probably other Feast Days) to take her when school coding club isn't running, until such a point as the DD's wishes are respected and she can choose to stay at home.

Surely which "clubs" they want to attend is exactly the type of decisions we should be letting a 7 year old make for themselves? (Assuming logicstics allow which they do in this case)

Whether a 7 year old attends church or not isn't going to be a massive deciding factor in their later faith (indeed forcing it may well be much more of a deciding factor!). Whether a 7 year old attends a coding club isn't going to be a massive deciding factor in a future career in computing. What letting them decide does though is gives them a little bit of age appropriate autonomy and means they will hopefully be enjoying what they are doing with their free time

5moreminutes "It is so enormously disingenuous when Christians try to pretend this all pervasive entrenched privilege doesn't exist and to frame themselves as some kind of embattled minority group, which is infact the polar opposite of the truth."

I am not trying to make myself out to part of an embattled minority. The Church of England is the official religion but what about Roman Catholics and other denominations. Should they get the freedom to pass on their version of faith to their kids.

You say things as if this is a Christian nation who understand and celebrate the Christian faith. I went to school in the UK and learnt nothing of any real meaning about the Christian faith at school. My kids are now rightly told about all faiths at school. Easter and Christmas in the UK are about chocolate eggs and Christmas trees.

I do not deny this is a Christian-heritage country and the Christian faith and especially the Church of England has a place of privilege which I do not deny has some influence but just living in the UK or going to a UK school doesn't make you a Christian or tell you very much about faith really at all, IMHO.