To wonder why England wants to keep Scotland?

[user1481215005]

Or am I being really thick? NS has been causing no end of grief the past few years always complaining about how bad Scotland has it (despite receiving more money for Scotland than Scotland gives back) also promising English votes for English laws and then changing that when something she didn't like can up. Her financial plan depends on the North Sea oil. If Scotland keeps rights to that it'll last fifty years tops before oil runs out. She just seems to be a constant pain and wants special treatment which wales and NI don't ever seem to get. I do love Scotland but right now I'm inclined to cheerily wave them off and wish the good luck.

I got shitty with gruff which I shouldn't have, she wound me up and I shouldn't have reacted. Other than that I haven't been disdainful, and I certainly haven't sneered. I respect someone's right to disagree. What I don't respect is nastiness, bullying and arrogance. On either side.

I think it would be sensible to wait to see what Brexit brings.

Of course there is always the question of another Brexit vote. After all, an independent Scotland may make people more wary about going it alone. So that too is a different political landscape.
I would imagine there is more trade with the rest of the UK than EU. So I would have thought it was more Important to be in that partnership than the EU.
Businesses find regulation and differing regulations between countries expensive and sometimes that is enough to make business uncompetitive and unviable. Most people don't see those sorts of small decisions often taken by people in other countries about the viability of businesses. But they add up.

Bathsheba I understand your fears and sympathise. There's no crystal ball though re: 10 years. I believe independence is the means to an end as per NS interview I posted there. But if it doesn't happen this time I don't think it's going to be done again and again.

I can't see things getting better for Scotland in the UK as things are.

That self governance for Scotland would result in more self respect? I don't agree with your description of the attitude.

I find it very odd you think we have no self respect. Very odd.

Mutual back slapping? Now you're straight up making shit up

Lass I can't see sneering from Saor and I haven't either. Not going to get involved with your stirring any further

Personally I think that the Brexit vote does give a mandate for a second Indyref, since the biggest part of Better Together's campaign was based on it being the only way to remain part of the EU.

I agree with that. Much as I have little appetite for another referendum, Brexit is a material change which was not predicted to actually happen & no one took seriously - least of all the Tory campaigners such as gove & johnson - and I'm still disgusted at their weaselly walking away from absolute fuck up they campaigned for - so we can all bleat on til the vows come home about the cost & division & expense of another bloody referendum, there's clear justification from the SNP manifesto & I can't argue against that.

Lass have you read my posts? Where do I say anything about self respect, hearts and heads, why I agree with independence, or anything negative about Westminster? That's right, I haven't. I think you're confusing me with another poster.

I think its an anger born of hopelessness. They know Scotland is become independent, but at a deep emotional level it is not what they want. It is heart over head for them, hence why there is much emotion, and so few facts.

What part of "you are voting for a totalitarian government who has fascism deeply rooted in their ethos" do you not understand.

Of course people are shitting it, because the woman us fucking mad.

SHE HAS NO MANDATE

MOST PEOPLE DO NOT WANT ANOTHER REFERENDUM ACCORDING TO POLLS

MOST PEOPLE DO NOT WANT INDEPENDENCE ACCORDING TO A RECENT REFERENDUM AND NUMEROUS POLLS

SHE DOES NOT HAVE A MAJORITY GOVERNMENT

SHE DOES NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO HOLD A REFERENDUM AGAIN. And yet she insists that she is having one.

She is veruca salt in disguise surely.

She is ghettoising scotland and yes I hate her.

PlectrumElectrum I was really upset when Brexit happened, I genuinely didn't see it coming. Much as I am all for independence, if this indyref results in a no, then there is no mandate for Indy3. I just hope all the nastiness doesn't happen again, its awful.

Bathsheba, I don't believe people vote a certain way through attrition as you describe. If they don't actually vote the way they want to they deserve what they get to a certain extent.

I feel the same as you only about an independent Scotland inside a brexit UK. I see no hope for us. I posted an article earlier which stated 'in the event of a no vote now even the formidable Ruth Davidson would not be able to prevent Scotland being plundered'.

I simply can't see an outward looking, resource rich, in the single market, small population who welcome skilled immigrants to help our tax base and our research and our NHS, country NOT succeeding. And the NHS is on its way out down south. I could cry when I think about it.

IT says such a lot about people when they are prepared to pay for yet another referendum in such a short space of time than pay for people to get the care they need. I'd give the money to cancer care / research. It would, in my opinion, make more people's lives better, and indeed could save a few.

You can't spend the money twice.

Personally I think that the Brexit vote does give a mandate for a second Indyref, since the biggest part of Better Together's campaign was based on it being the only way to remain part of the EU

I do not agree

A referendum is a referendum to leave the uk.

She is not providing guarantees that she will even seek to be in the eu.

There is certainly no guarantee that we would ever be accepTed with such an enormous defecit.

There is no guarantee that the eu will still exist by the time we are looking at joining.

SHE SAID IT WAS HER REASON FOR ANOTHER REF.

UNLESS SHE IS GUARANTEEING IT AS AN OPTION THEN I CAN'T SEE THAT AS A REASON TO HOLD ONE

Gruff did you watch the interview with her I posted?

"I find it very odd you think we have no self respect. Very odd."

I have never said that. I said self governance could generate more self respect. But I'm done with your stirring also.

Having had recent experience if the nhs down south, I can only say how fab it has been. I don't think you should believe all you read! My op was less than one week from diagnosis, and I wouldn't have wanted it quicker than that!
I work in the NHS and our care is good.

The material change argument is totally flawed due to the fact that NS conflated a Brexit vote with a second indyref. What's done is done, but I don't think there is a mandate purely because the Scottish vote was so skewed. If the SNP had not made any claims for another Indyref based on the outcome of the EU referendum, the results would have probably been a lot closer to the rest of the UK's results. I will keep on bringing this up because I think it's really important.

Saor, I was too & my anger was compounded by the lies & the 'shrug' of all those who campaigned for it as they walked off leaving others to pick up the pieces. Nothing that's happened since has given me confidence that Brexit will work out or we'll be better off at the end of negotiations. I'm pretty much open minded on all of this but I'm not comforted by any of the Tory grandstanding on Brexit & how crashing out without any deal is 'fine' & we 'minions' shouldn't worry about these things. It's far too reminiscent of gove's comments on 'so called experts' leading up to the referendum.

There was an economic plan for keeping Scotland within the UK last time, I didn't agree with it but it was valid. I didn't say it wasn't. But brexit has shattered that. I don't see any economic argument for Scotland to stay within a brexit UK.

Why the upset, let's see..

Independence would necessarily cause upheaval. Independence will at least in the short term be a shock to the economy ( yes my kids will be trying to get I to the workforce. Independence followed by EU also makes me look warily at youth unemployment in Spain, France and Italy.) I care about poorer people cos i am from a very poor background. I only see that group losing out tbh. I have heard of all the extras people pay in Ireland for medical care, school books and poor public services.

There would I expect be a boom in government jobs in Edinburgh but that isn't in my world.

The promise of pushing for referenda on an ongoing basis causes uncertainty short term as I am British and on a personal basis will be exiting Scotland at independence. Tricky to plan right now but i accept that's my choice and don't expect any sympathy!

So push for independence by all means but be honest about the short term pain which at the very least must be self evident.

I see no reason to be embarrassed to say my own sense of civic nationality is British.

I choose to pool my resources with the rest of the UK. Not Salmond and Sturgeons Scotland.

Any sadness and emotion may come when i realise my children may stay.

The material change argument is totally flawed due to the fact that NS conflated a Brexit vote with a second indyref.

I disagree. The SNP campaigned to remain & they outlined a vote for Brexit was a material change. This is not new, or something that NS has pulled out of a hat to justify indyref2. These were all known facts leading up to Brexit & leaving the EU, when it's been such a central point in the SNP's arguments for independence (claiming we'd get into EU easily after independence & saying that leaving the EU via Brexit is a material change).

You can disagree with NS calling for indyref2 & you can disagree with independence but you can't argue that being taken out of the EU when the majority of Scotland voted remain isn't material change of circumstances.

Saor at one point you thought it added something to the debate to point out a typo in a username.

So far as hearts and heads we were told we were wrong last time for voting by our head.

You and Calyx have now made a statement
(the 2 of you agreeing does not make it a fact) that we are ruled by our hearts and that is wrong too.

You see what you want to see in the tone and content of your posts.

Having had recent experience if the nhs down south, I can only say how fab it has been. I don't think you should believe all you read! My op was less than one week from diagnosis, and I wouldn't have wanted it quicker than that!
I work in the NHS and our care is good

Often people up here have no idea of the volume of people using english services. It is a very different kettle of fish imho.

Head, I'm glad your operation went well and you didn't have to wait.

Is the NHS in England in good shape then? I keep reading about it being in a bad way. Apologies if I'm wrong, I haven't had to use it.

From an article on brexit24.com:
"It’s not just the economy that will impact the NHS. Lower migration will also impact the NHS. We’re already in danger of having even fewer nurses with fewer students applying for a nursing or midwifery course. Whilst universities are seeing a drop in Brits going into nursing, the Telegraph reports that there are also fewer nurses from the EU registering to work in the UK."

But also funding for it. The NHS isn't even mentioned in any brexit discussions by the government so far. Which is strange given it was so trumpeted before the brexit vote.

I voted using both.... if the economic case was good my heart could have been told to fuck off and I would have voted on the basis of opportunity for future generations.

The economic case is bloody farcical