To wonder why England wants to keep Scotland?

[user1481215005]

Or am I being really thick? NS has been causing no end of grief the past few years always complaining about how bad Scotland has it (despite receiving more money for Scotland than Scotland gives back) also promising English votes for English laws and then changing that when something she didn't like can up. Her financial plan depends on the North Sea oil. If Scotland keeps rights to that it'll last fifty years tops before oil runs out. She just seems to be a constant pain and wants special treatment which wales and NI don't ever seem to get. I do love Scotland but right now I'm inclined to cheerily wave them off and wish the good luck.

Piglet I'm genuinely very sorry that that happened to your family, it's very wrong. I've experienced the same from the local orange lodge mindless thugs, and it's sickening.

Uncertainty- Brexit. I mean come on. There has to be an independence debate now and another vote. Uncertainty due to this will be temporary and once everyone chooses the uncertainty will be done.

"once everyone chooses the uncertainty will be done" Haven't we heard that one before?

Piglet I also think it's awful you and yours had that trouble before. There are bad folk out there.

Oddboots yes before the material change.

Personally I think that the Brexit vote does give a mandate for a second Indyref, since the biggest part of Better Together's campaign was based on it being the only way to remain part of the EU. Much as I am for independence, always have been and always will be, I would agree that if this indyref brings a No vote, that would be it. It would be time to stop. The sole reason I agree with indyref 2 is that there are clear and significant changes which mean it is required. I would be gutted if it was another no vote, but I'd accept that was fair.
Nobody thought Brexit would actually happen, nobody saw it coming.

The material change that was under discussion during the last independence vote, in which the Scottish people also had one vote per adult too, the material change that polling suggests 36% of SNP voters voted for.

Scotland chose to be part of the Brexit vote, it will take a few years for the results of that to shake out, to think of potentially splitting up before that happens is not right. Regardless of if you think Brexit is a good idea or not, the UK as a whole voted for it.

It is heart over head for them, hence why there is much emotion, and so few facts.

That is laughable coming from an indy supporter. It exactly sums up what is wrong with your position. Lack of facts .

What gives you the right to tell someone they're wrong? That's absolute arrogance. Just because they are of a different opinion to you doesn't make them wrong.

I think it's one of mindset. The rhetoric "independence" implies that they are held captive, by an aggressor.
The reality is they do govern themselves via parliament which they send representatives to.
the majority of people, when questioned voted for the status quo.

self governance for Scotland and resulting self respect,

This weasely, grovelling , perpetuating the chip on both shoulder attitude- that Scotland can only "respect" itself if it has independence is sickening.

'Does WM have power over Scottish elections like that?'

I don't think it's a question of power over Scottish elections, but the practical outcome of simply calling for a snap election & the SNP's current crop of MPs. The SNP couldn't avoid indyref2 in the campaign leading up to polling day. And that would certainly test the strength of mandate for indyref2.

My own feelings on the SNP's current level of support via the huge number of MPs is because the alternative was just not palpable for most of the Scottish electorate. Ruth Davidson is a decent politician & presents well to the electorate but hasn't so far stood for WM. I'm not sure she has plans to either? Labour in Scotland is never going to recover while JC is the leader & there's no policy or even ideas in place to address the issues Scotland is currently facing. There are lots of people voting for SNP who don't support independence because they feel the alternatives are just not attractive to them. But, I think they'd find a different response if a snap election is called simply because NS has made the call for indyref2. NS is a very good politician (her political savvy is undoubtedly on point in most situations, whether you like her or loathe her) but her own high stakes gamble here didn't account for this as a possibility. If indyref2 has any chance of gaining enough support to succeed, she needs time (to frame her arguments around Brexit) and Brexit to unravel (and there's a good chance that will happen given the complete lack of competence evident in the likes of David Davis in handling this - see this
<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/18/david-davis-leading-britain-elephant-trap" target="_blank">Telegraph article here - it sums up my concerns quite well)

The one thing that would swing the argument for independence in NS favour is Brexit unraveling in a calamitous fashion & time to frame her arguments to counter the Brexit outcome. I personally believe that a calamitous outcome is highly likely if it remains solely in the hands of the Tory extreme Brexit enthusiasts. I can't link to John majors article right now but, again, his comments on that echo my own thoughts on the current handling of Brexit.

Just watched this interview from Sky News with NS and she said everything I believe.

What gives you the right to tell someone they're wrong? That's absolute arrogance. Just because they are of a different opinion to you doesn't make them wrong

Exactly the same right as you or whoever made the statement I disagree with. Doesn't take much for your cloak of reasonableness to slip does it?

Facts were missing last time and will no doubt be missing this time.

Plectrum excellent post. I wonder what will happen. Do you think TMay will do it?

I have a sneaky feeling she'll bottle it tbh. It would be quite a bold move & out of sync with her insistence that everything else needs to wait while Brexit is focused on. But, she might surprise us all & go for it.

Lass - you may be sickened and think I am wrong, that's up to you. I think your responses are arrogant and plain rude and unhelpful but that is of course just me

The difference is, I don't resort to name calling, disdain and being outright offensive. You should try it Lass you'll find life a lot more pleasant.

There was the fact of Sturgeon and Salmond lying about having a legal opinion over EU membership last time.

Plectrum I think it would be too big a gamble for TMay but if the papers or her overconfident Brexiteers in her party start to push for a snap election she just might try it.

Calyx and Itsall - I am hugely worried because I think the SNP will just keep banging on about independence until they get the vote they want through attrition. Some people will just get so weary of it all that they will vote for independence just to make it all go away. As to No voters being heart over head, someone on this thread yesterday (pro independence) made exactly the opposite point (and then contradicted themselves) that Yes voters vote with their heart and No voters would vote yes if they listened to their hearts (I sound like a bad 80's ballad), but vote no because they listen to their heads.

Last time, Yes voters had all the balloons and flowers, it made people think they were on the 'right and true' side of the argument, but it was all style over substance.

TBH, I find most independence supporters reasoning for a yes vote very redolent of the brexiteers 'take back control' chorus. 'Freedom' at all costs - it has been reported, and even mentioned on recent indy threads that it will take 10 years after a vote for independence for Scotland to get back to it's current economic levels. I would like to ask independence supporters who are voting for independence for the sake of their children's futures, feel about possible fucking up their next 10 years. How old are your children? Will they be at school for the next decade, or trying to find work, or start families of their own? I have 2 nephews who are seriously looking at emigrating purely because of this situation. I know pro independence supporters will say yes, but Brexit will have the same effect - I am a remainer, and I worry about what effect Brexit will have, but I feel we will be far more able to weather the storm within the UK.

We can see by this thread the utter, utter divisiveness caused by the issue. I makes me want to weep

Plectrum- Awww couldn't read the Telegraph article without subscription- but I agree with its title.

The difference is, I don't resort to name calling, disdain and being outright offensive. You should try it Lass you'll find life a lot more pleasant

I did not call anyone names. As for disdain try reading your own posts back. Your sneering tone and attempts to claim the moral high ground are loud and clear.

"This weasely, grovelling , perpetuating the chip on both shoulder attitude"

That self governance for Scotland would result in more self respect? I don't agree with your description of the attitude.

I don't think it's a question of power over Scottish elections, but the practical outcome of simply calling for a snap election & the SNP's current crop of MPs

Ah, sorry I misunderstood and thought you meant there should be a snap Scottish election as the SNP don't have a majority in the Scottish Parliament.

Facts were missing last time and will no doubt be missing this time

I think there are plenty of facts, the issue is with how they are reported and interpreted. Each "side" can easily make the facts legitimately fit their own rhetoric. For every expert opinion, there will be another expert with the opposite opinion. Unionist will say that experts supporting independence are biased and paid by the SNP, yessers will say that unionist experts are biased and funded by Tory landowners.

All we can try to do as voters is try to critically look at original sources and make up our own minds.

When it comes down to.it , realistically the facts show there will be little change Scotland may be slightly worse off, or slightly better. It really is down to whether Scotland should be ruled from WM or not.

Lass - you may be sickened and think I am wrong, that's up to you. I think your responses are arrogant and plain rude and unhelpful but that is of course just me

Ditton with you and Saor's mutual back slapping and sneering about hearts and heads. Which is funny and ironic given that last time was castigated for voting from the head not the heart. Try making your minds up.