To wonder why England wants to keep Scotland?

[user1481215005]

Or am I being really thick? NS has been causing no end of grief the past few years always complaining about how bad Scotland has it (despite receiving more money for Scotland than Scotland gives back) also promising English votes for English laws and then changing that when something she didn't like can up. Her financial plan depends on the North Sea oil. If Scotland keeps rights to that it'll last fifty years tops before oil runs out. She just seems to be a constant pain and wants special treatment which wales and NI don't ever seem to get. I do love Scotland but right now I'm inclined to cheerily wave them off and wish the good luck.

But that would be the same as the hardest of hard brexits. Scotland would be out with no deal.

The probability is that there will be some UK-EU deal.

That is if the likes of Davis, May, Juncker and Barnier grow up and remember their responsibility is to serve the public, not sabre-rattle.

Juncker and Barnier don't need to or negotiate. A clean hard Brexit would be in the best interests of a majority in the EU.

A hard Brexit will decimate the UK but neither May or Davis have any ability to negotiate. This is why they were chosen for their roles.

Delicate lass,
My profound lack is the result of living and working in Scotland. Talking with Scots and listening to the locals. I came to the observation there are two groups of Scots. Those who want an independent country and think it will work. Those who want an indepentant Scotland and think it will be an economic disaster and reluctantly recognise the need to remain part of the UK.

I never met a Scot who actually wants a United Kingdom where Scotland is no more than a region of the UK.

That's it in a nutshell ! Every no voter I know (that are still no, quite a few have changed or are on the fence now) is afraid of going it alone & thinks that sticking it out with rUK is making the best of it

Itsnoteasy:
'It's not about money or the economy.. Even though Bill Clinton said "it's the economy stupid" .. This is a matter of the heart. It is about identity and a sense of who Scots think and believe they are. '

'Those who want an independent country and think it will work. Those who want an indepentant Scotland and think it will be an economic disaster and reluctantly recognise the need to remain part of the UK. '

So which is it - it can't be both. A matter of the heart and hang the economy, or it's only fears about the economy that are stopping people voting for independence?

itsnoteasy there are actually a lot of people in Scotland who are pro-Union because they like being British - some like continuing the tradition of having a royal family, of being united under the Union Jack, many have served in the forces and take pride in British identity.

In Glasgow (where I live), you are much more likely to find a No-voting Rangers fan than Celtic fan, with the Union Jack and allegiance to the Queen being big parts of their iconography and tradition. Of course that's not to say that all Rangers fans are pro-Union but a pretty high number are. So, in other words, there are definitely significant numbers of people in Scotland who don't fall into either of the camps you mention.

I would be in your second camp, personally.

There is no reason to think that an independent Scotland would be any more of an economic disaster than a hard brexit UK. In fact with our rich resources and small population there is every chance it will do well. We have thriving industries in tourism and video games, whisky and now gin, renewables, fishing, etc etc. If we are in the single market then that could make things even better economically - particularly if rUK is out of it.

there are actually a lot of people in Scotland who are pro-Union because they like being British - some like continuing the tradition of having a royal family, of being united under the Union Jack, many have served in the forces and take pride in British identity

And people in the UK who are pro-European
And people in England who want an English identity
And people in Europe who like the UK and like the European Union
And people in Scotland who want a Scottish identity and not to be in Europe.

There are a lot of groups out there who have different ideas of the future.

I wonder how many English people there are who want an independent England not in Europe?

I never met a Scot who actually wants a United Kingdom where Scotland is no more than a region of the UK

I have, my whole family. DP and I were the only yes voters last time. I think in the event of Indy2 my dad would vote yes this time, but the rest of my family remain unchanged. The PP who mentioned Rangers and Celtic is absolutely spot on. I live in the west of Scotland and there are two very definite "camps" of British and Scottish. That said, I voted based on what I felt was best, not my football allegiances because that would be ridiculous. Incindentally, my family and I never fell out or argued during the first Indy ref, and will be the same this time. There are people on both sides of the fence who need to understand that you can make your opinion known without being rude, offensive, disdainful and just plain nasty.

My profound lack is the result of living and working in Scotland. Talking with Scots and listening to the locals. I came to the observation there are two groups of Scots. Those who want an independent country and think it will work. Those who want an indepentant Scotland and think it will be an economic disaster and reluctantly recognise the need to remain part of the UK.

I never met a Scot who actually wants a United Kingdom where Scotland is no more than a region of the UK.

I have almost no idea what point you are making- who are these "Scots" and "locals" you are referring to?

Saor, that was me. I honestly don't think people who're not from the West of Scotland or haven't lived here a good while realise how tribal it can be. Growing up Catholic, going to Catholic school, I was definitely socialised to refuse to doff my cap to the monarchy or the Union Jack. In Glasgow if i go past a pub with Union Jacks flying I still get that feeling that a a Catholic of Irish descent shouldn't go in there, that there will be graffiti in the toilets about the Pope, Fenian bastards and the potato famine. And, in a way, this made voting No feel like the wrong thing to do for me - that I was aligning myself with people who hate people with my background.

Obviously that is not wholly the case but it's difficult to reconcile yourself with that after years of learning not to trust the Crown or 'Britain.' I voted No because I felt that the numbers really didn't add up and I could see a Thatcher type situation happening - whole areas with one dominant employer losing their jobs with the departure of British companies. My grandad was a miner and what happened in the 80s ruined the village where my mum's family stayed. It's still ruined now.

So yes, I think it's important to understand the different forces pulling at Scottish people when they vote.

So yes, I think it's important to understand the different forces pulling at Scottish people when they vote

My husband's family's background was hard left red Clydesider , I'm from a North East farming background, we are both 100% No.

We were at a rally on the last Sunday before the referendum both holding little Union Jacks- he said several times he never thought he would see the day he would be pleased and proud to do so and saddened at the thought of losing the Union. I suppose that makes us not "Scots"

The Scottish electorate do not possess a hive mind.

There are a lot of groups out there who have different ideas of the future. I agree ego
To think otherwise is patronising and facile.

So which is it - it can't be both. A matter of the heart and hang the economy, or it's only fears about the economy that are stopping people voting for independence?

Yes it is, my heart is in both. It is both at the moment. You are throwing away one if you vote yes that is all.

The economic case is a disaster. If I thought the union was harmful I'd vote yes. I don't and at the moment I can have both My heart is in both. If one is taken from me you have no idea the ANGER that I will feel. I am not alone in this. We have already voTed repeating this is nothing short of dictatorial.

My parents feel the same and we're born here

Were

Agent cooper I agree to say it is not tribal here is madness

AgentCooper both DP and I are east coasters and it was a culture shock and a half to realise that sectarianism is sadly rife through here. On both sides. I've come to realise that some people revel in division and hatred, which is all the more evident during the political campaigns in the last few years. Just because I voted yes, and I would vote yes again, doesn't mean I hate no voters. It makes me sad when divisions cause such upset and anger, and to me, it goes against everything democracy stands for. Ironically DP is considered an oddball where we live, being a war veteran, wearing a poppy on his Celtic strip. If people don't challenge bigotry, nothing ever changes is my take on it, fwiw.

The economic case is not necessarily a disaster. There is no economic case for hard brexit, that would be a disaster. The union has harmed Scotland for a long time. The Thatcher years where the mining industry and others were ruined - that would not have happened without the union.

As for dictatorial, don't make me laugh. What is May being if not dictatorial. Democracy is not dictatorial.

Yes that is certainly not done here. It's a shame you'd think Catholic people would be deeply respectful to families and people who protect their families.
I'm away to get my st christopher and fling it out the window? Not...

Repeated referendums are favoured in authoritarian states. It is all the way through history.

Food and drink exports from Scotland at a record high: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-39314636

Which is nice

This referendum is being repeated because of the material change in circumstances, remember? It was in the SNP manifesto and they were elected on it. Democracy.

I was c of e (protestant) and this is slightly closer to catholicism I suppose than Presbyterian (protestant). My kids don't wear their st christopher in case they get shit for it at school