Judge's warning to drunk women

[FirstShinyRobe]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39233617

AIBU to think she had a marvellous platform with her retirement speech to issue instead a warning to men not to rape women?

X-post with AndKnowItsSeven.

I am not a house

She makes a perfectly reasonable and valid point. What she says is a fact not an opinion.

If you are drunk then obviously you're more liable to be taken advantage of. This is just a fact. It is NOT the same as blaming the victim.

a prosecution goes a fuck of a long way to healing scars - trust me I worked in the area for 15 years!

My god, but surely it would be better if it had never happened? Also, only a conviction would help (an acquittal could make it even worse) and rapists frequently get fairly lenient sentences or get released early.

No ghost I didn't suggest than you were. I am sorry you were raped and absolutely it was not your fault.

I'm not a house either.

Perhaps there is a way to lock up your vagina though?

I don't think it is wise for ANYONE to lose control of their faculties and get pissed out of their heads so they don't know what they are doing, where they are or what's happening to them.

Ok not looked at statistics but I would wager a weeks wage that the crimes against lone women who are drunk is likely to be rape.
With men it maybe not a violent sexual attack but lone men that are drunk are attacked and beaten as well.

Rape is rape. There are thousands of different oppotinties for rape,not one of them is justified or the victims fault though.

fair enough but if we pass that message on to generations of women nothing ever changes and when bad things do happen people will say 'well what WHERE you doing walking there at 2am ...' and thus we are judged

So what are we supposed to do? Say "Oh, you were walking at 2am and got raped, how terrible - you should be able to walk there whenever you want without getting attacked!"

Great in principle but in reality is never going to happen and doesn't stop attacks. I should be able to walk through the park but in reality I can't do that and guarantee my safety - from any number of sources.

And honestly I did get the "WTF were you doing in the park at 4am alone, drunk out of your skull?!" comments, but it was nothing I wasn't already saying to myself because before that I had always thought that even if I got drunk I would still make the sensible choice when it came to my personal safety ... only I didn't.

It made me realise how vulnerable I had made myself and I hadn't even been aware of it as I had thought I was still in control and was self aware enough not to put myself in danger.

I am not a house

No, surely you are more valuable?

Also, if I decided to take a shortcut through a dark park in a very dodgy area of London and I had my handbag stolen by a thief, do you still maintain that any suggestion that I probably should take better care of myself is simply victim-blaming? Are you actually saying that encouraging me to take better care of myself is exactly the same as saying that the thief's culpability is reduced? Or could it be possible to say both?

Also, if I decided to take a shortcut through a dark park in a very dodgy area of London and I had my handbag stolen by a thief, do you still maintain that any suggestion that I probably should take better care of myself is simply victim-blaming?

Yes.

I'm not a house either

Perhaps there is a way to lock up your vagina though?
No you are not, you are just repeating what others have said and not bringing anything new to the conversation, so I may as well repeat myself and asy the same as before. 'No, you are more valuable than that therefore why not try to minimise risk.
Of course risk is never going to go way but for goodness age why not try and look after yourself in certain situations.

The more drunk you are you don't always realise your mates are doing their own thing, you may not notice the guy that has noticed you get drunk come over and turn the charm on, after all he seems so nice!

Of course you SHOULD be able to go where you want , when you want. Crack on! I prefer to keep my wits about me, like I said I may not b e able to get rid of all risk but I can try to minimise it.

Loads of typos in my post sorry! I'm drunk!!!

Sanction men who behave in a sexually predatory way - wolf whistling, bum pinching, slut shaming - make is ALL unacceptable

So, in the real world, how are you going to create real, workable laws which stop these? How are you going to define a 'wolf whistle'? How are you going to differentiate this in a solid, legal way from a whistle to attract a workmates attention? How do you prove who it was aimed at? How do you prosecute bum pinches which are often hard to pin down to the perpatrator, sometimes mistaken for something else, easy to hide and not often witnessed.

As for making 'slut shaming' illegal: how do you define it? It's a thought crime and a particularly insidious one to make illegal. How about criticising your son's wife because she cheated on him with ten men including on her wedding day? Is that slut shaming? Or not liking somebody who slept with your best friend's boyfriend or your husband? Is that slut shaming? Where do you draw the line?

How are you going to fund this? Where are the resources going to come from? Are you going to have police officers spending time investigating who wolf whistled or bum pinched? So if you ring up and tell the police that you're trapped in your house by a knife wielding mad man nobody would come because the police were all out investigating if Mrs Thomas said Kerry from down the road was a bit of a hussy? We have really pressing priorities at the moment like Social Care, children's social services, education, the NHS. Do we really want to spend money on policing that sort of thing? Y'know, let infirm pensioners sit in their own shit because we can't afford cars visits while prosecuting wolf whistlers? No.

Anyway, that still wouldn't stop psychopaths existing so it wouldn't stop rape.

It's a fantasy. You can't sacrifice young women to danger in pursuit of something that is almost certain to be impossible.

Fair enough, TheWorld. Strange view to have when the world is full of dangerous people and dangerous places. Presumably same applies if I decide I want to go on holiday to Syria? Still victim-blaming or is it about trying to encourage people to be safe?

All those saying 'it's just common sense'

When was the last time you heard of men being publicly told not to drink too much in case they're mugged/assaulted (inc rape)?

When was the last time you heard a judge in a carjacking trial say 'well if you will insist on having a flashy car what do you expect?'

These type of shitty comments are only EVER applied to women regarding rape.

'We're not victim blaming/saying that' yes you are, if telling women how to behave is a bigger priority than telling men not to rape that's exactly what's happening.

"Spotlight on the behaviour of the men, please." YES!

"Victim blaming, while dressed up as concern.

It's 2017. This absolute shit needs to stop" YES

I take it people have seen the 'that's not consent that's rape' ads? We need more stuff like that!

m.youtube.com/watch?v=AewZdSvJPPA

m.youtube.com/watch?v=G9gdjgzBaWQ

"Will a rapist think - "Damn no drunk women so I'll not bother raping tonight" or will they just pick the next most vulnerable target."

Exactly! My sister and I are both short and until we got older were slightly built, we've both been victims of assaults (plural) when sober, dressed modestly, in public, in daylight!!! In fact I know VERY few women who have never experienced any kind of assault. I don't know ANY that haven't experienced sexual harassment.

I was also sexually abused by my father from the age of 13, he's an alcoholic - his and my mothers excuse? He didn't mean it/know what he was doing because he was drunk!

Those saying 'you can't teach men not to rape' why not? Would stronger sentencing and higher prosecution/conviction rates not be a deterrent? Are the campaigns and schemes to teach boys/young men about consent pointless? Most rapes are committed by men known to the victim, even in a relationship with the victim. You see it on the relationship boards on here! Many rapists are rapists because they believe other than being screamed at 'NO I DO NOT WANT TO ENGAGE IN ANY SEXUAL ACTIVITY WITH YOU AT THIS TIME' = consent

Did any of you see the bbc programme 'is this rape?' ?

"Everyone knows that rape is wrong" but not everyone agrees on what rape is! There are too many people that think

consent obtained while a person is drunk/drugged means it's not rape

that only piv sex is rape

that if you've slept with your rapist consensually before the rape that it's not rape

that if the rapist is your husband/boyfriend/ex/friend it's not rape

that if they don't orgasm it's not rape

if they were drunk/on drugs it's not rape

If they are underage and you're not it's not rape (eg a 15 year old raping a 20 year old)

Allchattedout in most cases where a person matures without empathy and being abusive they have been abused themselves. And/or have witnessed abuse therefore have had such behaviour modelled to them. It's well documented in studies of violent rapists and serial killers etc

"It's not the police who don't prosecute Goldmandra, it's CPS. And they have to make a decision based on a likelihood of conviction. The sad fact is that trying to convince a jury to find someone guilty of rape is bloody hard, and our justice system is heavily weighted in favour of the defendant. As long as that remains the case, conviction rates for rape will remain low." Sadly true my brother is also a police officer and finds this increasingly frustrating. Presumption of innocence is not the same as assuming victims are all liars.

Sadly we'll never get rid of rape completely but it could be reduced massively if rape culture, the judicial system, sentencing, parole conditions, release of known serial rapists were reformed.

"I honestly think people who don't want these warnings made don't actually give two shits about rape victims and possibly even in some warped way want other women to get raped because it reinforces their world view. They just seem to see rape victims as collateral damage for their ideology." That is a deeply offensive and inaccurate comment!!

This judge was not advising her daughter she was making a public statement from a position of power, authority and expertise. That is what makes it so wrong.

The BEST 'comment' this judge could have made would have been to sentence this violent rapist who ignored his victims SCREAMS for him to stop to more than a paltry 6 years (which with current parole regs means he'll be out in less than 3!)

She could also have -

Called for stronger legislation on rape, stronger sentences, for judges to receive training on the long term effects of rape on victims, for judges to give juries better advice to juries.

"Sanction men who behave in a sexually predatory way - wolf whistling, bum pinching, slut shaming - make is ALL unacceptable" this too!

So what about all the sober woman who get raped?
What could they have done to "prevent" it?

Women talk of freezing during an attack, most attackers have weapons. Most use threats. Would you tell a sober woman that she shouldn't listen to a rapist threatening to kill her? Or that she should be careful not to freeze, or that she should not believe he will use a weapon?

Drunk or not, if a rapist wants to rape you, he will.

ghosty, do you practice what you preach? Do you refuse to take any personal safety measures whatsoever? Like making sure a cab is properly licensed to pick you up on the way home and not some random? Do you walk through deserted dark areas? Do you get your paralytic in public?

Or are you just prepared to let someone else who does take the fall for your principles?

Reading through the transcript I understand she was making the statement based on the fact that a lot of the rape cases, including her last one, involved the girl being very drunk. Her comment was to highlight that being drunk makes you vulnerable. I do not think her comment was victim blaming at all. I think she is trying to point something out that many people seem to not think about this.

As a manager we have team nights out and I take responsibility for getting my team home safely. That means if someone is plastered I have two people take them home, never two males and one female. It is common sense for me to do this. If someone is paralytic drunk I go with someone else myself to make sure they get home safely.

Most women are raped by people known to them. That is why I don't let two guys take a drunk girl home. That drunk girl is very vulnerable and, while I like to think I know the guys on my team wouldn't rape someone, the truth is you never know. I have tried to make my method of having two people take a drunk person (one female if the drunk person is a girl) home a firm wide policy. Unfortunately the standard response I get is 'Getting drunk after work is on individuals'.

When was the last time you heard of men being publicly told not to drink too much in case they're mugged/assaulted (inc rape)?

I think nearly all teenage boys are warned about this. Certainly all the ones I know have had a talk about how being overly drunk can make you vulnerable.

Are the campaigns and schemes to teach boys/young men about consent pointless?

Many rapists are rapists because they believe other than being screamed at 'NO I DO NOT WANT TO ENGAGE IN ANY SEXUAL ACTIVITY WITH YOU AT THIS TIME' = consent

What an absolute load of rubbish. This is denial of rape. That it's all just a big misunderstanding and the poor boys just didn't understand what consent was.

Bollocks. For most rapists the absence of consent is what they want because they want the thrill of control and force. They're not poor little flowers who can't understand.

No amount of 'M'kay' lectures about respecting women and the meaning of consent is going to make pyschopathic sadists stop wanting to rape women.

I've never, ever heard of any single convincing strategy for eradicating rape so any call for people not to be advised how to stay safe is one which has a callous disregard for any future victims and couldn't give two shits if it compromised the safety of other women.

Ghosty
you can advise about safety - I do - but in the context of mugging or gangs shit not just 'modify your behaviour as a girl because of rapists

Are you saying you do advice your D.C. to be careful about mugging and gangs but not about being sexual assaulted or raped.
That doesn't make sense to me. Would you suggest to your kids that they should avoid a dark lane in case they might get mugged but not if they might get raped? I really don't understand.

Ive also taught my girls to be strong feminists too but I also advice them to be wary of certain situations. I wouldn't want them walking down a dark alley way at night on their own even though I know they have every right in the world to do so. Suggesting they don't do things like that is me helping to protect them. It would be crazy to think that me saying things like that means that I would blame them in any way if the were raped...or attacked... or mugged. That just doesn't make sense.

Just because some nasty idiots genuinely do 'victim blaming' doesn't mean that everyone who advices their daughters to take care think like that.

I also tell my boys to be careful. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Discussing self protection does not imply that the victim is in some way to blame. That just doesn't follow on any level.

True, and few people would have trouble with that distinction with any other crimes other than sexual ones. Those seem to be the odd one out.

When was the last time you heard of men being publicly told not to drink too much in case they're mugged/assaulted (inc rape)?

I've always told my boys not too drink too much. I think its a completely normal thing to do.

I really wish I'd seen this earlier, because if I had I would have read the whole thread.

This is the first time i've ever posted without doing that.

I have a husband, a son, 2 brothers in law, a father, a father in law, and quite a few male friends and I can categorically say that every single one of them, if presented with a drunk, naked woman would take off their own clothes to cover the woman, take her home if it was nearby, or get her to a police station where she would, hopefully be safe.

Some of those men also subscribe to it being the woman's fault if she is assaulted or raped!

Somehow we need to get men talking to men about this.

As seen on various other threads, the subject of which I won't name, it's always down to women to sort out the shit that men perpetrate.

Stopping that is what we need to be addressing.

When was the last time you heard of men being publicly told not to drink too much in case they're mugged/assaulted (inc rape)?

I've always told my boys not too drink too much. I think its a completely normal thing to do

Agreed! We've always tried to teach our boys to be careful and control their drink. There are twats everywhere. The ones that want to put women in 'their place' , ones will pick a fight with a lone male!
We have 'one punch' campaigns to try to makmen think of their actions, there are campaigns such as 'no means no' and the consent and cup of tea analogy.
The comments that the judge was making seemed reasoned and sensible without victim blaming and she laid the blame fairly and squarely with the rapis and followed that up with a prison sentence.

Those with a cavalier attitude of doing what they want when they want , how they want abd scew rhe consequences, crack on! In the meantime I'll still go out out and have a few bevvies but will continue to look out for my mates, limit my drink and stay as coherent as possible, now how I am getting home and who with and have a plan b if necessary.
I may still get raped but I have assesssed the risk as much as I could, looked at potential danger areas and thought out how to avoid them as best as I am able.

These days (more experienced and better educated) I know being raped would not be my fault, regardless of how much I drank. But during my university years I would never, ever have told anyone had I been raped because I would dread my mother wondering why I had "put myself in that position". She would never say it, but I'm totally convinced she would think it. There are a few times I look back on and I'm pretty sure the situation would have been legally seen as rape. I don't talk about it because it is scary and i would rather just bury it. I simply cannot face the questions from people putting my behaviour under scrutiny.

It is worth considering that every time you tell your daughter to watch her drink you might be reducing the likelihood of her telling anyone if she had been raped.