Judge's warning to drunk women

[FirstShinyRobe]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39233617

AIBU to think she had a marvellous platform with her retirement speech to issue instead a warning to men not to rape women?

Good lord - can't believe that amount of victim blaming on this thread!! women deserve it because they drank too much??? SERIOUSLY???

The only person to blame in a sex crime is the perpetrator - can't believe people, especially women, are trying to make excuses!!

There is no excuse!! END OF

women deserve it because they drank too much??? SERIOUSLY???

Can you point out one person who's actually said this?

No one is saying women 'deserve' it because they got drunk. Have you actually read the entire thread?

But maybe we need to consider if the "women, prevent rape by not drinking too much" is being (at least equally) countered with "men, don't drink and so avoid raping someone". If all you hear is the first message and not the second it is understandable if women feel somewhat responsible for their own rape.

I'm NOT saying women are responsible for their own rape (to be clear), just that it is understandable if some women feel that way.

On a pragmatic level, I will absolute tell my daughter to watch her alcohol intake on a night out, as I will my son, when they're both old enough.

However ... this judge isn't saying anything that hasn't already been said a zillion times before. And yet funnily enough, it continues to do sweet FA to actually reduce/lower/stop rape. Puzzling that, isn't it.

Just once - when someone has a platform - it would be great if the messaging could be focused on the people who can actually do something about rape.

When I see a poster or a TV ad saying not to drink and drive, for example, I don't get all offended as a driver. I realise it's not aimed at me, because I don't drink and drive.

There's no denying though, that the years' long campaign aimed at reducing drink driving (and the devastating consequences of same) has worked. People, en masse, don't really do it any more.

Something that was once a normal, accepted part of life, is now judged pretty harshly by society. It's not accepted any more.

Just maybe, there's a chance of the same thing happening, if the 'take care' messaging was aimed at the perpetrators of the crime, instead of the victims.

But no, once again, someone in a prominent position, whose voice is actually heard, takes a tactic which might help a few individual women - but won't do a single bloody thing to reduce the incidences of the actual crime.
Frustrating, to put it mildly.

Billsykes your insistence that those of us saying that it is men's responsibility not to rape etc are WANTING OTHER WOMEN TO BE RAPED is a truly disgusting accusation!

RE men being PUBLICLY told not to get drunk I meant campaigns/ads/public comments by eg a judge - I have NEVER seen that happen.

I honestly think people who don't want these warnings made don't actually give two shits about rape victims and possibly even in some warped way want other women to get raped because it reinforces their world view

Someone actually said this?

That's some fucked up thinking right there.

I read that news story yesterday and immediately thought there would be a MN thread about it and I knew exactly how it would go.

And here it is.

I will never ever tell my daughter that it is in any way shape or form her responsibility to keep herself safe from being raped. She cannot 'keep herself safe'. As a woman in our society she is sadly always at risk.

I have already seen in her friendship group what happens when an assault occurs and the victim has had a drink. They don't tell anyone. They blame themselves. They fear that others will find out, especially adults and they will blame not the attacker, but the girl (dd is a teenager). They get increasingly unhappy, which affects their behaviour in all sorts of very negative ways. Meanwhile the boys who assault them continue on in their own merry ways.

Now of course girls are also assaulted when they are sober (there is no way to really keep yourself safe, it is a total illusion). And they often don't tell anyone then either, and manage to blame themselves still.

But by going on and on about how women and girls 'put themselves' in danger we make women and girls more fearful, less likely to report, less likely to be prosecuted and less likely for prosecutions to be successful (because juries - women as well as men - hear this message and think that the victim being even a little bit drunk means that somehow a rapist is less culpable). And meanwhile women and girls continue to be raped.

The problem is about giving sensible advice not to get drunk is that if something does happen, the first reaction is to ask where you drunk? This implies some fault to the person who got drunk. I told my daughters that whilst there are many lovely guys out there but some of them are nasty shits. They were told to contact home regardless of the time. When my daughters went out, I was the one who stayed sober. I was also shocked at the number of parents who supplied alcohol for their 14,15 and 16 year olds house party.

I have a son and daughter, my advice to my son as he's getting to that age where they're thinking about future opportunities to party. I hit it home when he talks how it isn't fair as he's mates Dad let's him drink. If at a party and a friend who's a girl or even his girlfriend gets unwell. Call us up if he's worried, make sure the girl is safe and watch over her. She cannot consent to anything if really drunk or God forbid if drugs are involved. I would rather pick my son and a legless girl up, risking them redecorating my car, getting her home safe, or even keeping her here if she can't go home. If it means me keeping awake all night to look after another persons child in such circumstances, than risk someone taking advantage. I keep saying if a girl is drunk then she can't consent, you could find yourself in all sorts of trouble. Even if the girl indicated by flirting or kissing a guy earlier on, if she gave consent earlier on, it does not apply when she's intoxicated.

My DD is too young, I wouldn't burden her with anything at such a young age. But when she is older i'll teach her about consent, how to call if she's drunk and needs picking up, how to call if a friend is out of control. I think as a responsible parent, in such a situation you owe it to your kids & the kids who they hang around with to protect them. Even into adulthood.

I would always contact the parents and say, look I've got your child here, I'll watch over them, I don't think medical attention is needed, but if that changes I'll be in touch.

Being from a large family and being one of the eldest, I am sober so if they ever needed help and with us living closish to town at one point, I've nursed many a cousin and sibling, even getting one to hospital and contacting my aunt and uncle to say look they're safe. Are they ok here under our supervision, then a further phonecall when I had to call paramedics as they bloody fell hitting their head. It wasn't even my/our fault, the cousin just took a stroll round our house in the middle of the night, whilst I was swapping sick buckets. But ironically even as old as I was I was scared how my aunt/uncle would react, as I felt like maybe I should have let the buckets accumulate, but they appeared fast asleep on a few towels on their side.

I don't know if others agree, but as 'uncool' as it is, a parent should possibly meet with another and say, look our kids hang out together, at 14/15 you don't know what they might do. It's a good idea to get contact details and addresses, plus consent maybe that if their child comes to you in any state, you either contact parents and say oh they can stay, or in worse case scenarios seek immediate medical attention, letting them know ASAP. I know both our cars link the phone to whatever system it is, so you can call whilst driving.

Plus we should teach both sexes about dangers, about looking out for friends, also that there's nothing in the least bit romantic or 'right' about having any form of sexual relations with a drunk person. From the stance of the law and risks like STD's etc.

I know when I was young I had assets and wasn't afraid to flaunt them, bloody stupid as I was. I hope my DD will have a more modest dress sense not that it matters. I remember one NYE and it had been snowing, my Dad dropped me off in town with my boyfriend at the time. My skirt barely covered my arse, my boobs were hiked up as far as they'd go, plus 3 inch stilettos!

Although 80's/90's fashion was dodgy at best, with my perm & earrings that I'm surprised never tore my ears.

Maybe men are picking women who've had a drink precisely because they are seen as having some responsibility for what happened and they are therefore less likely to get prosecuted for raping a woman who's had a drink. Maybe men don't want to think of themselves as rapists and picking someone who can't consent through alcohol gives them an out through twisted logic about reduced inhibitions and not saying no meaning yes. Maybe some men get off on raping women who are incapable of consenting. having a drink puts you at risk from the men that like raping women who've had a drink but there's plenty of other men who'd rape you whatever. It's terrifying to realise it's not really something you've control over and it's very easy to blame yourself. to all who've shared their experiences.

AutumnBlossom Brilliant post.

If every single woman in England stopped drinking tomorrow, do we really think the number of rapes would reduce? I don't.

I do. I fought off my attacker after a night out when I was about 18/19. A friend and I accepted a lift, she got out and the idiot sat next to me in the back locked the doors trapping me in the back of the car with him when I tried to get out. His mate, the driver did nothing. Had I been out of it, he would have raped me. He was like an octopus, his jeans were open and my knickers were around my thighs before I managed to escape. It was an awful experience and it never occurred to me to report it.

I shall definitely be giving my dd the advice given by the judge to protect herself. And she's learning judo to hopefully use as self defence. Should she need to protect herself? No. But idealism and reality are very different.

And can you imagine a sextegenarian female telling men, who rape not to rape? The most likely response would be either "who'd want to fuck that old bitch" or "I'd give her one she's a feisty cunt". Or decidedly worse. Anything she could say on this subject would be more likely to inflame the situation or be seen as a challenge by certain degenerates.

She's sensibly using the platform she can use to speak to those, most likely to listen. I would have thought male reality stars, male celebrities or certain male teachers would have the most impact on rapists or would be rapists.

Whilst it is indeed his fault, part of me does believe that it may not have happened if I wasn't so drunk

I am really sorry that this happened to you. You were not responsible in anyway for being raped. The rapist is responsible. Not you.

There are no excuses - ever.

MummyofLittleDragon
Its difficult to predict the effects of alcohol. It does impair judgement, slow reaction times and reduce awareness which can all increase the risk of being assaulted but the fact is you may have still fought your attacker off when drunk.

plenty of women get raped when sober too.

Thank God you escaped though!

HandbagCrab Great post.

I didn't see her statement as blaming women. When i first started going out drinking, my mum would always say to me, don't wander off on your own, don't leave your drink unattended and make sure everyone gets home at the end of the night. I knew of an awful awful situation where a woman in my hometown was attacked and raped. My friend had been part of her group and said she had left alone and everyone was so drunk they didn't notice and assumed she was with someone else. The police afterwards said rapists don't just appear in alleyways waiting for a woman on there own, they will sit in a nightclub and watch a group of women then target the one who looks the most vulnerable. That's not the woman's fault it's the mans for being so disgusting to think it's acceptable to do that. The judge is only speaking from her experience. We can preach about how it's unfair that a woman can't drink without feeling unsafe or at risk of being raped, but that won't affect the mind of a man who has decided he is going to rape a woman. I see it as protecting yourself.

I should add- by protecting myself I mean staying as in control as I can when out drinking. we unfortunately live a world where these awful things happen and as much as I wish we as women could drink as much as we wanted, maybe even lose control, feel safe walking home on our own etc etc unfortunately in this world doing so does make you vulnerable

The judge was in no way victim blaming. She said the drunk women are more vulnerable to predatory men. 100% true.

Telling rapists to stop being rapists isn't going to stop them. They don't care.

Giving women good advice to lessen risky behaviour will.

It isn't victim blaming as neither is the victims fault but one may reduce rapes the other will not

Only skimmed through the posts since last night - it seems just a couple of you even see where I'm coming from. No, I don't like the don't drink message when aimed at women alone and related to rape. I do think precautions when drinking are sensible, but more from the point of view of stumbling into the road, falling in rivers (anyone in York know how many "don't drink" messages are there aimed at men?), losing your wallet etc.

My point is about her emphasis and I'd still like to discuss that. Having slept on it, I hope she considered that her message is actually heard by potential jurors and that she's reinforced the rape myths often found in reasonable doubt. (Rapists being in prison stops them raping women - if we've given up on the idea that education might instill some humanity, then jail is a pretty good alternative). She knew what the headlines would be and still emphasised womens behaviour.

A bit like me knowing what the bulk of posts on this thread would be about, although I was at least pretty certain that there are plenty of posters on here who can argue clearly and rebut rape myths. (That said, I didn't expect to be accused of wanting women to be raped by a poster who is also advocating that women takes steps to make sure they aren't the ones raped.)

I've found an article with more detail www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/10/women-get-drunk-must-protect-against-rapists-judge-says/amp/

There's so much more she could have said on the back of her final case, but no, she chose concern trolling about women whilst reinforcing rape myths that lead to acquittals due to reasonable doubt.

Exactly, men and women getting so drunk that they loose all their faculties is never a good thing. Yes I will tell my adult children to not overdo it with the drink, that's sensible advice, not only from a health and money point of view, but a safety view too. I would hate tge thought of my child getting so drunk that they are passed out in a gutter somwhere, and vulnerable because they are!

Many rapists are rapists because they believe other than being screamed at 'NO I DO NOT WANT TO ENGAGE IN ANY SEXUAL ACTIVITY WITH YOU AT THIS TIME' = consent

What an absolute load of rubbish. This is denial of rape. That it's all just a big misunderstanding and the poor boys just didn't understand what consent was.

Bollocks. For most rapists the absence of consent is what they want because they want the thrill of control and force. They're not poor little flowers who can't understand.

you have completely misunderstood what I said. I am NOT Denying rape! I am saying that many rapists don't consider themselves rapists because they choose to believe the myths. That DOES NOT excuse them they are still rapists and should know better!

Go and have a look at the number of rape victims on the relationship boards who aren't sure if they've been raped and who's husband/partner (the rapists) even sometimes TELL them it's not rape.

It includes
Women raped while asleep
Women raped while drunk
Women raped while experiencing altered consciousness due to illness/medication
Women raped by coercion
Women raped because their rapist when they said no, because the woman was/is their partner/wife they said 'you don't mean it' 'you want it really'

In other cases of rape by someone the woman knows the rapist has taken the fact the woman froze (in shock) or didn't say no as consent - I've seen examples of this on mn and know of 2 cases in real life. Both denied rape only 1 convicted but as we all know how crap conviction rates are this is no indication. I believe the victim.

Most rapes are committed by people known to the victim. 90% according to rape crisis.

Many rape victims freeze and therefore visible injuries are not incurred - again info from rape crisis.

You don't seem to understand the reality of rape BSD