Judge's warning to drunk women

[FirstShinyRobe]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39233617

AIBU to think she had a marvellous platform with her retirement speech to issue instead a warning to men not to rape women?

JedBartlet JAPAB can you suggest what a good limit would be for women to be able to drink, to avoid rape?

No. Because there are some rapists for whom this is irrelevant. Best they can do is reduce the chances of certain types of rape and rapists, by not getting too drunk. And no, I cannot give a one-size-fits-all answer as to how much can be drunk without getting to that stage.

Absolutely right page

PageNowFoundFileUnderSpartacus JAPAB your examples would only be analogous if every area had a serial killer on the loose all the time, or 50% of the population made plans to travel into a war zone or area of terrorist activity afresh every day.

Those are just differences. I do not see why they would affect the point of the analogy that "don't do X to reduce Y" does equal victim blaming etc. Unless if you think that if serial killers were constantly on the loose then it would become victim blaming to tell people they have to modify their behaviour or a more permanent basis.

And yes, it is sad that we even have this situation at all with respect to sexual crimes.

I said it seemed to me Blinky. I've given my opinion on what she said. I'm entitled to do that. Others have disagreed and said her advice was sound and they agree with what she said. Which is fine.

I haven't personally attacked them for giving their opinion by asking them if they are a mind reader or something

Actually in reality if there were a serial killer on the loose and a curfew were to be imposed, I would argue vociferously for it to be imposed on the section of the population who fitted the profile of the suspect rather than the victims.

Well we all know that when Sutcliffe was battering women to death over the head with a hammer, it was the women who were asked to stay indoors. Of course some of those women were prostitutes. But when his MO extended to 'nice' women, the curfew was expanded.

Yes, I lived through that too Elendon.

Being burgled is shit but it's incomparable to being raped however upsetting someone finds it and to equate them is massively offensive. My insurance can't replace anything after I've been raped. I can't just go out and get better locks and an alarm to make sure I don't get raped again. I can't move out of my body if I feel uncomfortable in it after being raped. I can explain to people that I've been burgled ans they're not going to start questioning my story because they're scared it'll happen to them and they want reasons why it won't happen to them but it just happened to me because I'm not careful enough.

I'd put it that stabbings are rare because everyone knows they are a terrible crime. But rape is like identity theft so much more common and mainly happens to people who don't take proper precautions.

The most prolific serial killer in the UKandNI was Shipman, a trusted figure, who doesn't trust their doctor 100%? It will never be known how many people he killed, within the sanctity of their own homes. He may even have locked the door.

Page I lived in Ireland at the time and could only imagine. The Observer and The Irish Times covered it brilliantly.

I thought the Mail published her words in full (blue box) www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4301558/amp/Top-female-judge-issues-warning-drunken-women.html

That was to the people saying no ones read it in full / taking her words out of context. Couldn't find an official transcript.

JAPAB right. So we agree that it is not an effective rape preventative, to tell women to stop drinking. As in fact, there are men out there who will rape them anyway. There is not a 'safe' or 'unsafe' amount of alcohol. Lots of rapes are committed against sober women by men they know, in their own homes.

So let's stop telling women to modify their behaviour in any way, and instead focus on the one common factor in every single incidence of rape. Men who rape people.

Why don't we ask men to modify their behaviour to keep people safe? Men, don't drink too much and rape someone. Men, don't go out alone late at night and rape someone. Men, don't leave your group of friends in order to attack a woman while no one can see you. Men, don't drive women home and then rape them. Men, keep women safe by not raping them.

Why isn't that the message that we are teaching our children, asking our government to promote and our judicial systems to recommend? Instead of having a conversation with your daughter to the effect that if she does everything 'right', she might not be raped (but someone else will be), have a conversation with your son about consent, respect, criminality and consequences.

Good post JedBartlet

Well said JedBartlet.

JedBartlet she did say men should modify their behaviour - "There is absolutely no excuse and a woman can do with her body what she wants and a man will have to adjust his behaviour accordingly."

I have first hand professional experience of Judge Kushner and have appeared before her many times in the family court on child protection matters. I don't know if this makes a difference to how anyone views her comments, but she has been one of the most pragmatic, practical, understanding and down to earth judges in Manchester for many years. Knowing her in that capacity, I believe her remarks come from a desire to want women to be as safe as they can be. She is not coming from this at a victim blaming stance, she is looking at it as a judge having heard evidence time and time again of the horrors of what women have experienced and wanting to stop it from happening. I wouldn't imagine for a second that she is excusing a rapist's behaviour. You can see that from her remarks.

Personally I know she will be a loss to our justice system.

a woman can do with her body what she wants and a man will have to adjust his behaviour accordingly

Unless 'what she wants' is going out and getting pissed without getting raped, presumably?

She cannot mean what she says about woman having bodily autonomy and men adjusting their behaviour, if in the next breath she says women should be aware that if they get drunk they are putting themselves at risk. Either you believe rape is entirely the fault of the rapist or you do not.

Why don't we ask men to modify their behaviour to keep people safe? Men, don't drink too much and rape someone. Men, don't go out alone late at night and rape someone. Men, don't leave your group of friends in order to attack a woman while no one can see you. Men, don't drive women home and then rape them. Men, keep women safe by not raping them.

Stupid judge! If only she'd said this the problem would be solved. You've essentially said these men don't respect women but you expect a speech from a woman to seriously curb their behaviour. Her actual speech might, if taken on board by women who regularly get drunk on nights out, actually stand a real chance of saving some women from sexual assaults. Though, in a country where many believe you can't have fun without alcohol, preferably to excess, it seems be be akin to asking people to sacrifice their first-born.

And the "fault" aspect would be dealt with when the rapist was sentenced. The victim having had a drink would not have been mitigation. I have not read the full judgment as I've not seen it published but he will not have had a reduction in sentence for that.

Is it not true on a practical level that getting drunk is putting yourself at risk, not just of rape but other crimes? Whether we wish that were the case or not? Is that not what she is saying, in the context of this particular case?

Out of interest would posters feel so strongly if the warning had been to parents not to leave their children alone 50 meters away while having a meal? After all there was huge critisim of the McCann family but you could apply the same principle . Either the kidnap is entirely the fault of the kidnapper / murderer or it is not?

And also the judge did agree it was the fault of the rapist which is why he was jailed.

Wejammin thank you for your post. I think also it could be said a conviction could be postentially harder if the victim is very drunk and cannot remember what happened as the whole basis of the conviction could in SOME circumstances be on consent.

charlestonchaplin you seem to be deliberately misunderstanding me.

Telling men not to rape people doesn't stop them raping people.
Telling women not to drink doesn't stop men raping people.

But isn't it better to focus future efforts on the former, with an aim at re-educating men about how they view women, women's bodies, consent, respect, than to constantly ask women to change how they behave?

As has been pointed out several times on this thread, you are most at risk of being raped by a man you know. If we REALLY care about protecting women from rapists by the process of them modifying their behaviour to avoid situations they are most at risk, why don't we recommend women avoid male friendships, boyfriends, husbands, colleagues. Because actually that is where the biggest danger lies.

If alcohol is really the aggravating factor here, men drinking to excess is as much the problem as women drinking to excess, except it's the men raping people. So what's the problem with telling MEN to drink less? Why is that so ridiculous? Men and women both get drunk. Only men rape people while drunk. Why is it women who have to change?

Jed It isn't an either-or scenario. Tackling rape obviously needs a multi-pronged approach but any talk of protecting oneself from the trauma of rape by keeping your wits about you is slammed right down by people like you.

One thing I know is that I wouldn't let political ideology get in the way of protecting someone I love. I wouldn't want my daughter to be at heightened risk of harm, including rape, on a night out, so yes I'd tell her to take care and watch the drink. It might only be one scenario in which she is at risk, but that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore it. I want to spare her pain and I don't care if it's unfashionable to say, 'Be careful'. After all, the best counselling money can buy will not necessarily alleviate the pain.

If I had a daughter I encourage her to be loving, kind and a good citizen. I would also take her to self defence/martial arts classes from the age of 5 onwards. Allow her to say no, be bolshy, not kiss relatives unless she wanted to, never leave her with a lone male baby sitter (not man hating, just a response to the statistics). Encourage her to dress however she wanted, do whatever she wanted, swear whenever she wanted, play fight, run. climb trees, play sport. Be free, but streetwise. I would listen to her and believe her if she came home and told me a man did something to her. I would be a lion bringing up a cob to be a lion with a huge roar.

I wouldn't want my daughter to be at heightened risk of harm, including rape, on a night out, so yes I'd tell her to take care and watch the drink.

being female in a million situations puts one at a heightened risk of male sexual violence.