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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Judge's warning to drunk women

985 replies

FirstShinyRobe · 10/03/2017 21:47

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39233617

AIBU to think she had a marvellous platform with her retirement speech to issue instead a warning to men not to rape women?

OP posts:
Elendon · 13/03/2017 09:52

I dont think my husband will rape me

Which indicates a certain amount of doubt. Not at all 100%.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 13/03/2017 09:53

Agree elendon

I have been in dangerous situations in my youth, only a few and one with my husband

And stone cold sober

But if i had been raped i would have been told that i shouldn't have been in those situations

OpalFruitsMarathonsandSpira · 13/03/2017 09:54

Elendon I understand that you have your trust issues, and rightly so given your experiences. I do hope you will work through them some day and experience the joy of trust in another.

Trust. Not blind naivety. Trust.

If my husbands DNA was found on another person that trust would no longer stand would it. So explain to me why you think I would stand by a rapist? Very strange imagination you have. But again, I understand why.

I also understand that given your experiences you label deep trust as a child like characteristic. That is because that is the period in your life when you last trusted anyone. However trusting someone who is worthy of that trust, is not childish. Your compass has been knocked off and you are scared. I understand.

In a way your lack of trust is more restrictive than anything this judge has said. To vow, "I will never trust a man," is so much more prohibitive than to vow, "I will always remain in control and not under the influence of drugs or excessive alcohol."

This judge wants you to be careful with your body. You are telling me to gaurd my soul. I'm going to continue doing the former but not the latter. Even when my trust has been broken in the past, I still have faith in people. And I love my life, I'm not bitter, and I'm not scared.

Flowers
Elendon · 13/03/2017 09:56

And I don't understand the argument that telling men not to rape isn't going to stop men from raping, but telling women not to drink is going to stop rapes. It's not a logical argument.

Also, I don't understand the locking the doors analogy either. My sister had her bag stolen in her home, when her, her husband and her son were watching TV. She had left the bag in the hall. The door was not locked. The guy walked in and took it. (He was caught on CCTV from a neighbour opposite).

OpalFruitsMarathonsandSpira · 13/03/2017 09:56

And i think opal was wrong in saying that there would be no ambiguity if god forbid she was attacked. Close friends and family? No...everyother fucker? Yes

I hope it is understood that I mean ambiguity in my head, so as I could withstand the horrendous cross examination I would have to endure?

OpalFruitsMarathonsandSpira · 13/03/2017 09:57

And I don't understand the argument that telling men not to rape isn't going to stop men from raping, but telling women not to drink is going to stop rapes. It's not a logical argument.

Because if you are at risk you are more proactive

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 13/03/2017 09:57

Personally elendon i have no doubt

At all

But as many people have said thats what they thought about their partners

And here is the kicker...if he did rape me and i told people, most would side with him, he is such a 'nice bloke'

Thats sad isnt it

And there is absolutely no way i can live my life any differently with him

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 13/03/2017 10:00

hope it is understood that I mean ambiguity in my head, so as I could withstand the horrendous cross examination I would have to endure

Thats not how people have been reading it

Sorry

Elendon · 13/03/2017 10:01

I don't have a strange imagination Opal. But thanks for the psychobabble on my personality. I'm not bitter. I've learned from my experience. But you are scared. You understand the message from the judge which is to not put yourself into danger, and you are also scared for your son when he goes on a night out.

I wouldn't trust your husband. Get over it. He's a stranger to me and you know, 'stranger danger'. I've been conditioned throughout my life that if you put yourself into a vulnerable position then you will get part of the blame.

OpalFruitsMarathonsandSpira · 13/03/2017 10:01

I can see that now. It's been read as I'm saying the court would just believe me and throw the book at the perpetrator.

PageNowFoundFileUnderSpartacus · 13/03/2017 10:01

I think one of my issues with the comparison between the precautions you take to protect yourself against property crime vs against rape is that the former have virtually no impact on your life. Locking your door while leaving the house? You'd be leaving the house anyway, so you take literally two extra seconds to turn the key. Carrying your wallet in an inside pocket rather than the back pocket of your jeans? You're taking your wallet with you anyway, you're literally just putting it in a different pocket. Putting your laptop in the boot of your car instead of leaving it on the back seat? Same sort of thing. You live your life exactly as you would, with the "precautions" taking less than a few seconds to enact as part of your usual routine. You do those things and you reduce your chances of being a victim of crime by a massive percentage, because you've made it that much harder for the criminal.

But with rape, to reduce my chances of being a victim by the same percentage - and to try to ensure that if I get it wrong, my behaviour will have been "exemplary" by the standards against which rape victims are judged - the sort of precautions I'd need to take are hugely impactful on how I would have to live my life. Take going for a night out, as that's the focus of the judge's remarks. I was going to wear that dress, but it's a bit short so I'd better wear trousers instead. High heels? What if I have to run away from a rapist? Better make it flats. Look, it's happy hour, cocktails are two for one. No, I need to be sober with my wits about me so just an orange juice for me. I need the loo. Better not leave my drink in case it's spiked, so I'll take it with me and hope there's a surface to stand it on. Now the really tricky part...getting home. Should I leave earlier and get the last bus? But no one else wants to leave yet and there's that dark bit you have to walk through to get to the bus stop, so I'd better stay until one of my friends is ready to leave. Here's a taxi. Should I sit in the front? What if the driver tries to touch me? I'll get in the back...and so it goes on and on and on. And yes, any one of those actions in itself isn't much different to the comparisons above but it's the fact that it's so endless. And then I could do all that and still end up being raped by a colleague because I was engrossed in work and didn't realise he and I were the last two in the office, and my sensible business suit and lack of make up and buttoned up blouse weren't enough to deter him.

I hate it, and I resent it even as I do some of it because I've been conditioned to. I hate the fact that I'm weighing up your husbands and sons and brothers to try to assess in a split second how likely they are to rape me. That taxi driver? Lovely man, father of two little girls, volunteers at the local animal rescue on his shifts off. But until I'm safely through my front door, he's a potential rapist. And I fucking hate it.

OpalFruitsMarathonsandSpira · 13/03/2017 10:02

I wouldn't trust your husband.
Confused

HandbagCrab · 13/03/2017 10:10

Equating being raped to being burgled is massively offensive and everytimr it is used as an analogy you trivialise what happens. The dismissive tone about not leaving laptops in your front step. Banding rapists in with non violent crimes like burglary and identity theft. Rape is violent in and of itself. A better analogy would be how one protects oneself from being stabbed. Never had anyone tell me to wear kevlar routinely as a precaution.

I'd say you've been fortunate to have avoided sexual assault and rape, it's not down to following the rules, whatever they are.

Elendon · 13/03/2017 10:12

Opal you are not being proactive though, you are being reactive, which is entirely different.

Great post Page.

PageNowFoundFileUnderSpartacus · 13/03/2017 10:16

Thank you HandbagCrab, you've perfectly articulated (better than I ever manage to) my other issue with the analogy.

Graphista · 13/03/2017 10:19

"I will never encounter a rapist where there will be any ambiguity that a rape has occurred. "

No I don't believe you, I think YOU are back tracking. You said

"A rape has occurred"

And not

"That I have been raped"

Plus as is this entire thread it was said in the context of women "making themselves vulnerable to rape", you were trying to say if YOU were raped people would find it very hard to victim blame you because YOU would never place yourself in a situation of ambiguity.

It was offensive to rape victims (especially those who WEREN'T believed, who were unable to get their rapists convicted), it was arrogant and naive and ignorant of the reality of the majority of rapes which are committed by rapists KNOWN TO THE VICTIM.

OpalFruitsMarathonsandSpira · 13/03/2017 10:21

Being burgled is a hugely invasive crime. Many people move home afterwards because of the violation they feel. To minimise these victims experiences or play victim top trumps is also offensive.

I think given the impact on victims it is a very good comparison.

OpalFruitsMarathonsandSpira · 13/03/2017 10:22

Calm down Graphista. Believe what you will. Wine

fairweathercyclist · 13/03/2017 10:25

A better analogy would be how one protects oneself from being stabbed

Same precautions as not being raped actually. Don't get drunk so you've got your wits about you. Stay away from any man who you feel uncomfortable about. It's very similar in some respects - rapists get their penises out, men who stab get their knives out.

Elendon · 13/03/2017 10:32

rapists get their penises out, men who stab get their knives out.

You are equating a penis with a weapon. Seriously?

charlestonchaplin · 13/03/2017 10:38

With the emotional trauma rape leaves behind, which may or may not be eradicated by counselling, I don't know why anyone would want people they love to be more vulnerable to rape. Yes, many, perhaps most rapes would have occurred regardless of whether the victim was intoxicated, but there are certainly cases where people are preyed upon because of their drunken state. Where the potential damage is so great some restrictions become worthwhile, even if they will only protect you some of the time.

No-one is saying don't go out, don't have fun, dress like a nun. Just, don't get legless, which is a bad idea for many reasons. Not because if you do and you get raped it's your fault, but because if you do and you get raped you'll suffer great pain, which may not be dealt with adequately by supportive friends/family/agencies. But if you are happy to take that risk with your health and happiness, crack on.

The person in the wrong is always the perpetrator of the rape, but guilt that you put yourself in a vulnerable position may contribute to the emotional trauma of rape. And telling people they shouldn't blame themselves doesn't mean they won't.

PageNowFoundFileUnderSpartacus · 13/03/2017 10:42

It's vanishingly rare to be stabbed by an opportunist with a knife. Take DV out of the equation - where we're back to the being at home with the man you trust situation - and in my CJS experience the vast majority of stabbings occurred when two or more men got into a fight with each other, and they were usually known to each other beforehand. Most robbers don't go armed.

OpalFruitsMarathonsandSpira · 13/03/2017 10:42

You are equating a penis with a weapon. Seriously?

Confused
OpalFruitsMarathonsandSpira · 13/03/2017 10:43

fairweathercyclist

I understood your point. Elendon will only agree with posts that totally support their view. It's weakening her argument somewhat.

Elendon · 13/03/2017 10:46

If my mum, who is in her 90s was scammed by someone, she would feel guilt, however my brother was scammed by someone and all he felt was anger. My mum and I had this chat some months ago. She would feel she hadn't done enough to protect herself. My brother said he did feel protected but was scammed anyway. He was angry and mum would feel guilty. Years of conditioning brings about different responses.

And mum also agreed that in feeling guilty she would somehow have contributed to it.