Judge's warning to drunk women

[FirstShinyRobe]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39233617

AIBU to think she had a marvellous platform with her retirement speech to issue instead a warning to men not to rape women?

Give it a little while and other women will be along to tell us it's just sensible advice, and to compare rape to the theft of a laptop. I despair, I really do

Hmm I was having a very similar conversation with my husband yesterday. So if I left my front door wide open and said people should not burgle me but was burgled anyway, would you say "no they should not" or would you say "you're an idiot for leaving your door open"? Or both?

People should not commit crime. But in the real world, they do.

As a woman, we won't have true equality until we can get drunk like men do*, and go out for runs in lonely places without worrying like men do.

*actually I think if a man gets drunk he's more likely to get into a fight or just end up lying in a gutter somewhere or get run over. Why should women be any different?

It is common sense to take precautions to avoid being the victim of a crime. Any crime. And given how awful rape is I'd have thought you'd take even more steps to try to stop it from happening to you.

Yes of course there is a wider issue of male violence. But in my micro-world, I'm worrying about number one. That means not going out in a lonely place on my own, and not getting drunk late at night.

Does anyone know the details of the case

Two men attacked her on a canal path but thats all i know

Dont know what the difference being sober would have made to her

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer you are right.

Graphista I take great exception to the insinuations you made about my loving and trustworthy husband, but I accept that your wording was clumsy and that you have clarified that was not your intention.

Rufus she went with them to the canal path from Burger King. Someone from a nearby flat heard her scream.

One was prosecuted one was not. Most likely, as we both know, both were guilty.

One established reasonable doubt.

Thank you opal

Opal
"Graphista the time to clarify that was after my post of 7.04, not an hour later as a back track"

A I'm not constantly on mn or this thread

B I am not backtracking. Your husband may be trustworthy but do you really never have male friends stay over or you stay with them? Do you never stay in b&b's or hotels without your husband?

Allchattedout - I have seen news reports where the victims attractiveness, dress, behaviour were reported plus ones where they were alluded to. "we need to strike a balance" except currently in terms of conviction the scales are heavily weighted in the favour of rapists.

Rape shield laws in the countries I mentioned from what I've seen and heard from people I know that live in these countries is more strictly adhered to than in the uk. I'm sure I remember a case last year where there was a rape victim in uk who put in a sort of formal complaint about her previous sexual history being used by the defence.

Opal while I was not referring specifically to your husband when I made the initial comment I didn't even know what your relationship status was, I do not know your husband, I was making the point that there are women who trusted their husbands/partners who were then raped/sexually abused by them.

You are taking offence where none is intended but ALSO being offensive to and dismissive of those women who were raped by men that THEY trusted the same as you trust your husband!

Your initial comment was

"I will never encounter a rapist where there will be any ambiguity that a rape has occurred. "

Do you not think those women thought EXACTLY the same? How much success do you think they had/are likely to have in getting those rapists convicted?

Disappointing that a judge can't grasp that rape "precautions" don't stop rape, they just increase the chances of the individual woman not being the victim. There will be a victim. How many women does that judge think were at risk but more cautious that night in Manchester? I'm guessing thousands.

If you want to stop a particular individual being raped, advice about behaviour might help. Although surely the judge doesn't think women don't know how we are supposed to act to "stay safe".

If you want to stop rape, the advice is utterly fucking pointless.

"I will never encounter a rapist where there will be any ambiguity that a rape has occurred. "

I thought this was staggeringly naive as well. Women are raped by husbands, boyfriends, colleagues, relatives, bosses, tradesmen as well as strangers. Including people they trust, love. Do you think my friend who was raped by her husband (and actually did get to court and get him convicted) didn't trust her husband? Perhaps she was a bad judge of character, and you're not, so you'll be ok?

Rapists LIE to police and in court. They say you consented, they put down injuries you may inflict to "rough sex" that you wanted, they either deny you said no, or claim no means yes. Even judges have stated that No can mean Yes And that's assuming you don't freeze in fear, a very common response.

" I will never encounter a rapist where there will be any ambiguity that a rape has occurred."

I stand by this statement. I know my lifestyle, I trust those closest to me. They trust and support me.

Cherry pick at it if you like. Imply I'm saying something I'm not if it suits.

Notice the parallel between your behaviour to prove a point and a rapists behaviour to convince them-self of their innocence.

I make no judgement on others lifestyle choices.

But I will never encounter a rapist where there will be any ambiguity that a rape has occurred.

I won't avoid saying something I believe for fear of causing offence. I won't be silenced like that by anyone. Even victims of the most horrific crimes don't get the right to silence my voice.

No one's trying to silence your voice, Opal.

I think you will have to accept people will say you're a bit of a nitwit.

Of course I can accept that. And I can view them as one-dimensional and close-minded.

But it doesn't really further the the discussion, does it?

Cloud cuckoo land I'm afraid Opal. I sincerely hope you never are a victim - but anyone can be a victim, even women with the most conservative lifestyles. My friend has a very conservative lifestyle - she trusted her husband, she trusted his family (who are very well to do) who turned against her and called her a liar. He was a very respected professional. It was shocking, the case made the news.

TheWoodlander

I never said I couldn't be a victim.

I said:

where there will be any ambiguity that a rape has occurred.

Read my post at 9.05. There is always 'ambiguity' because rapes happen (in general) where nobody else is around to witness. And rapists lie about what really happened. And you know what - people often believe them.

The problem as I see it Opal, with your assertion that your husband is someone you can 100% trust, is that I don't know your husband. If we met on a night out socially or during work, I wouldn't 100% trust him, especially if he offered me a lift home. I'd refuse. Sensible actions to take, do you not agree?

However, what also troubles me is that if your husband was accused of raping a person/colleague, you would still stand by him, because of this almost childlike trust you have with him.

I remember reading a book called This Charming Man. In it the author told of a barrister or lawyer who defended women when it came to domestic abuse trials. It turned out that he was violent towards his wife. The writer was shocked and almost disbelieving when she found out about it. He would have been the last person on earth to have been accused of such a thing.

However, what also troubles me is that if your husband was accused of raping a person/colleague, you would still stand by him, because of this almost childlike trust you have with him.

I'm sure you didn't mean to be quite so cuntish?

Sorry I misspelt rude.

I think its carefully worded enough actually

of course we do not want to victim blame but I sincerely wish I had this advice when I was at university , and in my 20s

and she is right that if a woman is paralytically drink when it happens she probably wont report it , meaning a raping scum bag goes free to rape more

You have to pick your audience, and she knows she will be listened to more by a certain audience

and she jailed him! hardly victim blaming

opal

i shouldnt laugh but that was funny

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer

She's right though - and as you said:

I won't avoid saying something I believe for fear of causing offence. I won't be silenced like that by anyone.

Elendon has that right too.

Opal Could you explain to me what you find rude cuntish about my sentence?

However, what also troubles me is that if your husband was accused of raping a person/colleague, you would still stand by him, because of this almost childlike trust you have with him.

Is it that you wouldn't stand by him? Or that I observed that you have an almost childlike trust in your husband?

To be fair

I dont think my husband will rape me

He might, lots of peoples husbands do and relationships break down

But no as of today and the time i have spent with him so far i dont think he will rape me

I do not have a childlike trust in him

And i think opal was wrong in saying that there would be no ambiguity if god forbid she was attacked. Close friends and family? No...everyother fucker? Yes

I was at university in my 20s during the 80s and we had the advice that drinking to excess was not good if going out socially and meeting others. I didn't drink much anyway as one drink was enough. But I often felt left out because I couldn't actually take my drink well. So two drinks would have me being actually behaving quite drunk. It did impede on my social life, but I was well aware of the dangers.

Seems the same old message of women don't drink on a night out is still being peddled and that the onus is on women to control their behaviour and not on MEN TO NOT RAPE.