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Judge's warning to drunk women560Show OP
Today 00:09 BlinkyT
Can someone give a link to what the Judge actually said rather than the reporters account?
Thanks

Today 00:15 Northernlassie1974
Once again, you miss the point.
I'm not comparing the act of rape to the act of burglary. They do not compare.
I'm comparing the act of being aware of the risks of leaving your home unlocked to the risks of being extremely drunk. Both acts mean you are less defended against people wishing to take advantage of a situation.
Again, would you not warn a loved one on their way to a night out to 'take it easy' of course you would. If the unthinkable happened and they were raped, you wouldn't then be guilt of victim blaming would you?

Today 00:23 TheWoodlander
Northern - You seem very irate about the fact that I have read the article and that Rape Crisis had a problem with what this judge said, and made a statement about it - and you want to argue with me about it -why is that?
Rape Crisis has not missed the point, and nor have I - examining the woman's behaviour in rape cases leads to victim blaming.

Today 00:37 Northernlassie1974
Hmmm,
Rape crisis has missed the judges point, as have you, of both mine, and the judges.
She is not examining women's behaviour in rape cases. Her whole statement is not examining women's behaviour.
Examining. Key word here are in the above argument.
She is stating a fact, not examining anything. Fact:in the vast majority of rape cases that she has sat on, the victim was vulnerable as she was drunk. Fact. Not blaming. Fact.
Also fact that a predator has chosen to act in a heinous way. The victim is exactly that, a victim. No blame there.
I agree whole heartedly, victim blaming is wrong. In rape or any other case.
I am not irate, simply bemused at the different interpretations of a persons words.
Fascinating.

Today 00:45 Flowersandjellybeans
It's so unbelievably complicated surely? Of course no woman is ever to blame for being too drunk for being able to defend herself? The blame always lies with the attacker. 100%. The blame never lies with someone unable to defend themselves - whether someone was a quadriplegic or so drunk they are unable to prevent a sexual assault, they are in no way responsible for an attack.
I would imagine this judge, who has probably seen too many of these cases, simply wants to prevent the kind of trauma these cases cause. Rapists exist. It's a horrible fact but it's true, and whilst we fight for a global change in attitudes towards women and our bodies (and I do believe we will achieve true equality eventually) I believe her advice, whether correct or incorrect, was given with love, and kindness, and her motive was good with the ultimate desire to prevent harm.
Men who rape are utter bastards, and it's all the more horrifying that they could be family members, friends or colleagues. With the ultimate hope that one day, gender will be irrelevant, and no man will ever feel entitled to anything, in the meantime, we can, no should, all of us (men and women) help reduce risk to the people we love by not letting our slightly tipsy friends go home alone after a night out. We've all been there - sometimes I think my male friends can be at serious risk of people starting fights with them.
I think the judges motive was for good, not victim blaming, but whilst the world (including the UK) still a frankly terrifying place, the best thing we can do is look out for each other. Never be silent.

Today 00:46 PageNowFoundFileUnderSpartacus
I've only read the first 300 posts or so so apologies if I'm repeating anything said in the last 200.
I'm a firm believer in rape is always the fault of the rapist, as we all are here. Most reasonable people would say the same, if you asked them. But there is still that drip-drip-drip that influences us a society. So in a theoretical discussion about rape, everyone will say "rape is 100% the fault of rapists" and believe they mean it, and at one level we/they do. Then a rape is reported where the victim was drunk and vulnerable and a proportion of those same people will think, not exactly that she was to blame, but that it might not have happened if she hadn't been so drunk, that it was a pity she made herself so vulnerable, where were her friends?...something along those lines which is still focussing the scrutiny on the victim's behaviour not the rapist's. I know it happens, because I've heard and read women say as much, not in a "what does she expect, she was asking for it" way but simply because it is ingrained in our culture that when a rape is reported we look to the victim's behaviour. And that has to change.
There has been a lot of discussion on this thread about the futility of trying to teach men not to rape, and I mostly agree. But how about we make practical changes to start to tip the balance? How about it becomes illegal for court journalists to report on the victim's behaviour and level of inebriation? It could still be raised in court where relevant so the jury hear all the facts, but subject to reporting restrictions. That would cut off at the source a big chunk of that drip-drip-drip to the wider public.
So if it's pointless targetting the rapists, then why don't we have campaigns aimed at the decent men rather than the rapists, to start helping making rape unacceptable? There could be a campaign aimed to encourage more decent men to speak out publicly against rape, to condemn other men for the sort of trash talk and aggressively sexist language that often signifies contempt for women. If it's considered sensible and acceptable for girls to look out for each other, why not make a parallel campaign for men, but in terms of being encouraged to keep an eye on the creepy/solitary/'off' bloke in the pub or club who seems to be studying groups of girls or similar, or if they spot a seriously drunk woman leaving alone suggesting they alert another woman/group of women who might be inclined to help her get home safely? Why is it seen solely as a problem for women to prevent? Rapists damage decent men too - by making them targets for undeserved suspicion and fear. I think if the judge had gone further and pointed out that decent men can make public places safer as well, and that men shouldn't make themselves vulnerable through excessive alcohol either, not least because it risks them misreading a situation or acting on an impulse that their sober self would know to be wrong, that would have been a more balanced message. If we're saying publicly that women's judgement can be impaired by alcohol and they take impulsive risks that make them vulnerable, then the same has to be said about men.
Of course pragmatically I take safety precautions, even while strongly resenting that the onus is on me to do so. However although I rarely go out drinking in town these days, if I do I always, always look out for other women and if I see a stranger reeling around on her own at the end of the night, I'll try to help her get home safely. Yes I've been sworn at a few times (and vomited on once...that was fun) but I won't stop offering. If by taking safety precautions and staying relatively sober and alert I'm saying to the opportunist rapist that his victim won't be me, then I'll try my damndest to make sure it isn't her instead.


Should pocket money be linked to chores?
Today 00:47 Northernlassie1974
Flowersandjellybeans
Exactly!

Today 00:59 TheWoodlander
Pagenotfound - I'd like to point out to you that a vast number of rapists are considered "decent men" in their field, or life, loved by their families, considered pillars of the community in many cases. Their loved ones frequently stand by them, convinced that they have "falsely accused". When in fact genuine false accusations are extremely rare. I was involved with a case where the man was previously described as having "excellent character and family". Rapists don't have horns and tails, they aren't social outcasts, and they walk among us, masquerading as normal men in happy families.
I'm sorry if that sounds bitter - I am actually very happily married with children - but I have been through experiences in life that tell me this.

Today 01:00 Flowersandjellybeans
PageNotFound that is exactly what I mean, we should all look at for each other, the other day I saw a very drunk/drugged up man on the train harassing a a school girl (wearing a uniform) bless her she was obviously massively uncomfortable but just didn't know how to say 'just fuck off and leave me alone' so I ran major interference until she got off, then left him to his rambling. It was the classic 'what are you reading' situation if you know what I mean.
You're right, nobody goes out and gets pissed on their own (weird old bar flys excluded) and I feel if you've all gone out together, everyone is responsible for making sure that nobody gets left behind.

Today 01:08 TheWoodlander
There are approx 85,000 rapes in the UK each year - and approx 1000 convictions. You do the maths.
Rapists are not living alone in shacks - they are men we know, men we form friendships and relationships with. I know - I was raped by a boyfriend. Someone I trusted enough to share a home, a bed with.
To concentrate on women's drinking habits on a night out, is quite simply muddying the waters.

Today 01:09 PageNowFoundFileUnderSpartacus
TheWoodlander I worked in the criminal justice system for over a decade so sadly I know all that you say is true, including about false accusations. But I was referring to genuinely decent men, that majority who think rape is abhorrent. We need them to start stepping up more and accepting that rape is, or should be, a problem for men too (and I don't mean the threat of them being raped; I mean culturally/societally) for them to try to prevent it - as much as is possible - instead of it always being women's responsibility.

Today 01:11 TheWoodlander
I can't disagree with that, pagenotfound.

Today 05:21 Graphista
"I personally think these are just sensible suggestions from someone who has seen the facts of many rapes. There aren't many female judges so I think she was right to give the opinion"
Actually as a FEMALE judge she should have known
How appallingly low rape convictions are
That rapists often get off as a result of their barristers arguing that the victim consented and is lying or has forgotten because they were drunk or high (even though that has been clarified legally as meaning the
"You are attributing imaginary meanings to other people's posts that are not true." That is so disingenuous as to be ridiculous! We are talking
"It would be so nice to hear a judge saying men who do go out and target drunken women should know that they will feel the full force of the law and victims will be treated sympathetically when reporting rape." " yes! We need more members of legislature and the judiciary saying things like this
Or something like this:
"I want to send a message to rapists and society that rape is alwaysrape, that seeking out and taking advantage of vulnerability is always illegal and that the full weight of the law should be applied to such criminals, regardless of your history or place in society' "
That captures exactly what was wrong about what she said. The emphasis should been on enforcing that what rapists do is wrong.