Judge's warning to drunk women

[FirstShinyRobe]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39233617

AIBU to think she had a marvellous platform with her retirement speech to issue instead a warning to men not to rape women?

Once again, you miss the point.
I'm not comparing the act of rape to the act of burglary. They do not compare.
I'm comparing the act of being aware of the risks of leaving your home unlocked to the risks of being extremely drunk. Both acts mean you are less defended against people wishing to take advantage of a situation.

Again, would you not warn a loved one on their way to a night out to 'take it easy' of course you would. If the unthinkable happened and they were raped, you wouldn't then be guilt of victim blaming would you?

Northern - You seem very irate about the fact that I have read the article and that Rape Crisis had a problem with what this judge said, and made a statement about it - and you want to argue with me about it -why is that?

Rape Crisis has not missed the point, and nor have I - examining the woman's behaviour in rape cases leads to victim blaming.

Hmmm,
Rape crisis has missed the judges point, as have you, of both mine, and the judges.
She is not examining women's behaviour in rape cases. Her whole statement is not examining women's behaviour.
Examining. Key word here are in the above argument.
She is stating a fact, not examining anything. Fact:in the vast majority of rape cases that she has sat on, the victim was vulnerable as she was drunk. Fact. Not blaming. Fact.
Also fact that a predator has chosen to act in a heinous way. The victim is exactly that, a victim. No blame there.
I agree whole heartedly, victim blaming is wrong. In rape or any other case.
I am not irate, simply bemused at the different interpretations of a persons words.
Fascinating.

It's so unbelievably complicated surely? Of course no woman is ever to blame for being too drunk for being able to defend herself? The blame always lies with the attacker. 100%. The blame never lies with someone unable to defend themselves - whether someone was a quadriplegic or so drunk they are unable to prevent a sexual assault, they are in no way responsible for an attack.

I would imagine this judge, who has probably seen too many of these cases, simply wants to prevent the kind of trauma these cases cause. Rapists exist. It's a horrible fact but it's true, and whilst we fight for a global change in attitudes towards women and our bodies (and I do believe we will achieve true equality eventually) I believe her advice, whether correct or incorrect, was given with love, and kindness, and her motive was good with the ultimate desire to prevent harm.

Men who rape are utter bastards, and it's all the more horrifying that they could be family members, friends or colleagues. With the ultimate hope that one day, gender will be irrelevant, and no man will ever feel entitled to anything, in the meantime, we can, no should, all of us (men and women) help reduce risk to the people we love by not letting our slightly tipsy friends go home alone after a night out. We've all been there - sometimes I think my male friends can be at serious risk of people starting fights with them.

I think the judges motive was for good, not victim blaming, but whilst the world (including the UK) still a frankly terrifying place, the best thing we can do is look out for each other. Never be silent.

I've only read the first 300 posts or so so apologies if I'm repeating anything said in the last 200.

I'm a firm believer in rape is always the fault of the rapist, as we all are here. Most reasonable people would say the same, if you asked them. But there is still that drip-drip-drip that influences us a society. So in a theoretical discussion about rape, everyone will say "rape is 100% the fault of rapists" and believe they mean it, and at one level we/they do. Then a rape is reported where the victim was drunk and vulnerable and a proportion of those same people will think, not exactly that she was to blame, but that it might not have happened if she hadn't been so drunk, that it was a pity she made herself so vulnerable, where were her friends?...something along those lines which is still focussing the scrutiny on the victim's behaviour not the rapist's. I know it happens, because I've heard and read women say as much, not in a "what does she expect, she was asking for it" way but simply because it is ingrained in our culture that when a rape is reported we look to the victim's behaviour. And that has to change.

There has been a lot of discussion on this thread about the futility of trying to teach men not to rape, and I mostly agree. But how about we make practical changes to start to tip the balance? How about it becomes illegal for court journalists to report on the victim's behaviour and level of inebriation? It could still be raised in court where relevant so the jury hear all the facts, but subject to reporting restrictions. That would cut off at the source a big chunk of that drip-drip-drip to the wider public.

So if it's pointless targetting the rapists, then why don't we have campaigns aimed at the decent men rather than the rapists, to start helping making rape unacceptable? There could be a campaign aimed to encourage more decent men to speak out publicly against rape, to condemn other men for the sort of trash talk and aggressively sexist language that often signifies contempt for women. If it's considered sensible and acceptable for girls to look out for each other, why not make a parallel campaign for men, but in terms of being encouraged to keep an eye on the creepy/solitary/'off' bloke in the pub or club who seems to be studying groups of girls or similar, or if they spot a seriously drunk woman leaving alone suggesting they alert another woman/group of women who might be inclined to help her get home safely? Why is it seen solely as a problem for women to prevent? Rapists damage decent men too - by making them targets for undeserved suspicion and fear. I think if the judge had gone further and pointed out that decent men can make public places safer as well, and that men shouldn't make themselves vulnerable through excessive alcohol either, not least because it risks them misreading a situation or acting on an impulse that their sober self would know to be wrong, that would have been a more balanced message. If we're saying publicly that women's judgement can be impaired by alcohol and they take impulsive risks that make them vulnerable, then the same has to be said about men.

Of course pragmatically I take safety precautions, even while strongly resenting that the onus is on me to do so. However although I rarely go out drinking in town these days, if I do I always, always look out for other women and if I see a stranger reeling around on her own at the end of the night, I'll try to help her get home safely. Yes I've been sworn at a few times (and vomited on once...that was fun) but I won't stop offering. If by taking safety precautions and staying relatively sober and alert I'm saying to the opportunist rapist that his victim won't be me, then I'll try my damndest to make sure it isn't her instead.

Flowersandjellybeans
Exactly!

Pagenotfound - I'd like to point out to you that a vast number of rapists are considered "decent men" in their field, or life, loved by their families, considered pillars of the community in many cases. Their loved ones frequently stand by them, convinced that they have "falsely accused". When in fact genuine false accusations are extremely rare. I was involved with a case where the man was previously described as having "excellent character and family". Rapists don't have horns and tails, they aren't social outcasts, and they walk among us, masquerading as normal men in happy families.

I'm sorry if that sounds bitter - I am actually very happily married with children - but I have been through experiences in life that tell me this.

PageNotFound that is exactly what I mean, we should all look at for each other, the other day I saw a very drunk/drugged up man on the train harassing a a school girl (wearing a uniform) bless her she was obviously massively uncomfortable but just didn't know how to say 'just fuck off and leave me alone' so I ran major interference until she got off, then left him to his rambling. It was the classic 'what are you reading' situation if you know what I mean.

You're right, nobody goes out and gets pissed on their own (weird old bar flys excluded) and I feel if you've all gone out together, everyone is responsible for making sure that nobody gets left behind.

There are approx 85,000 rapes in the UK each year - and approx 1000 convictions. You do the maths.

Rapists are not living alone in shacks - they are men we know, men we form friendships and relationships with. I know - I was raped by a boyfriend. Someone I trusted enough to share a home, a bed with.

To concentrate on women's drinking habits on a night out, is quite simply muddying the waters.

TheWoodlander I worked in the criminal justice system for over a decade so sadly I know all that you say is true, including about false accusations. But I was referring to genuinely decent men, that majority who think rape is abhorrent. We need them to start stepping up more and accepting that rape is, or should be, a problem for men too (and I don't mean the threat of them being raped; I mean culturally/societally) for them to try to prevent it - as much as is possible - instead of it always being women's responsibility.

I can't disagree with that, pagenotfound.

"I personally think these are just sensible suggestions from someone who has seen the facts of many rapes. There aren't many female judges so I think she was right to give the opinion"

Actually as a FEMALE judge she should have known

How appallingly low rape convictions are

That rapists often get off as a result of their barristers arguing that the victim consented and is lying or has forgotten because they were drunk or high (even though that has been clarified legally as meaning the victim was UNABLE to consent)

That victims of rape are more likely to be victim blamed than other crime victims

That women are more likely to be victim blamed when they are crime victims

That there's a MASSIVE problem with people's understanding of consent in sexual relationships

That many rapists feel entitled to sex without consent but if they're not a violent 'stranger rapist' it's not rape.

ALL of the above being addressed by her would have been far more useful.

"You are attributing imaginary meanings to other people's posts that are not true." That is so disingenuous as to be ridiculous! We are talking about rape, when a poster says they advise their dds not to 'dress like prostitutes' it's not because they don't want them getting cold!

"It would be so nice to hear a judge saying men who do go out and target drunken women should know that they will feel the full force of the law and victims will be treated sympathetically when reporting rape." " yes! We need more members of legislature and the judiciary saying things like this.

Or something like this:

"I want to send a message to rapists and society that rape is alwaysrape, that seeking out and taking advantage of vulnerability is always illegal and that the full weight of the law should be applied to such criminals, regardless of your history or place in society' "

"in that context [the victim being drunk] it made sense. It would be odd if, after sending the rapist to jail for six years, she made a comment about something completely different." How would either of the above 2 suggested statements the judge could have made 'completely different' alectrevelyan ?

Sadly (and I don't mean this judge) there are too many of those who are ignorant rape apologists. We need that to be countered properly.

"But when the sole message continues to be to women to do things to avoid being raped, then the responsibility is being placed on them...

The ramifications of this are that society as a whole - if not individuals on his thread - hold women partly (if not wholly) responsible for putting themselves in a position to be raped. Society does. Defence lawyers do. Jurors do." Exactly!

"And all women can do apart from wring their hands is ensure they don't get too drunk, don't wear too revealing clothing, don't walk alone at night and to also cross all their fingers that they don't know any rapists who don't give a shit about those things or have the misfortune to run into one.

100s of posts about 'common sense' drinking and dark alleys. I doubt there's a woman alive in the uk that hasn't heard this. Or a rapist."

handbagcrab I posted this earlier on the thread but don't think many have seen it. It's a video made by a young girl using reductio ad absurdum to make just this point.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=G9gdjgzBaWQ

This is an anti-rape ad that runs in Scotland addressing the 'if she was wearing skimpy clothes she was asking to be raped' myth.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=AewZdSvJPPA

"But the judge has caused added distress to rape victims with her words." Pebbles you are/were NOT to blame he is! So sorry that happened to you and sorry this judges words so distressed you. You are right on this reaction of course.

"Which is maybe why I have little patience for the anti-rape advice of 'don't get drunk' levelled at women. It won't keep you safe - not in my experience. And it does, whether people admit it, or like it, feed into the victim blaming culture when it comes to rape. It just does - you may not admit you 'blame' her, you may not say that she 'deserves it' - but it's there implicitly: "she was drunk." " Eloquent, articulate and accurately put.

"Men perpetrate 93% of violence in the world. When are men going to own their own problems? Men rape women and children, men kill women and children! I cannot bear it when men say they are feminists- where are the marches of men shouting out to other men to stop raping women and children? when do male 'feminists' ever take any action against male dysfunctional energy?" Hear hear!

"The inebriation of the man, however, should be relevant in the context of whether they were reckless as to consent. Funny how that rarely comes up when a jury has to consider the reasonableness of their belief in consent." Precisely op.

"It is totally fallacious to suggest this is limited to rape trials/complainants." But it IS given greater weight in rape trials - by defence barristers, jurors, judges.

Interesting development

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/39241470

Then there's this - these are potential jurors mind, or in the case of the younger folk, future police officers, lawyers, judges, legislators...

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11409210/Drunk-or-flirty-rape-victims-often-to-blame-says-survey.html

And we've had hundreds of years of this kind of crap attitude:

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.carbonated.tv/amp/uk-judge-shames-assault-kidnapping-victim-for-drinking

"the men are excused for their actions because of their alcohol consumption, while the female victims are condemned for it."

Very brave lady here:

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/rape-victim-badly-down-criminal-9639011.amp

“The law is clear – if someone is so drunk they can’t consent, it is rape, but these cases can be very difficult to obtain a prosecution in.”

"Rape is not about male entitlement. It is a criminal and evil act." If that's so can you explain why a large number of rapes involve little physical violence (as opposed to sexual and psychological violence) and are perpetrated by women's romantic partners?

"the examination of the defendant's belief in consent and its treatment by the jury is far from compelling in terms of thoroughness" yes!

"I even think the men who feel this way don't even think they have raped. They think they've just had sex." A point I tried to make earlier, particularly true when the rapist is a husband/partner of the victim. See it frequently on the relationship boards 'but my husband is telling me it wasn't rape as I've liked sex like that in the past' 'my husband is telling me it wasn't rape as I was not completely asleep' 'as I wasn't too drunk' rapists continuing to abuse their victims by gas lighting them and convincing them it wasn't rape and not to report/get support.

Northernlassie your tone is very condescending and patronising. Just because other posters don't agree with you doesn't mean we (or rape crisis! Experts in this area) are stupid for doing so. Please reconsider your tone.

"It is ingrained in our culture that when a rape is reported we look to the victims behaviour...that has to stop" yes!

pagenowfound I like the sound of your campaign to get men addressing the issues of male entitlement, sexism, sexual entitlement and rape.

In Glasgow over Christmas/hogmonay there was a scheme whereby bar staff were trained by police on helping protect potential victims of date/drug rape, on spotting potential perpetrators and stepping in subtly if they were thought to be targeting someone, on making themselves available to women who needed help to extricate themselves from a dangerous situation. I understand it worked quite well.

Also, what does this mean? (Judge quote)

There is absolutely no excuse and a woman can do with her body what she wants and a man will have to adjust his behaviour accordingly

What does she mean by adjust his behaviour? Surely a decent man would behave the same towards a sober or drunk woman, and not rape her. What behaviour is he adjusting? His sense of male entitlement?

The more I read this judges statement the more it seems to endorse male entitlement, not challenge it.

Both my rapes were definitely about male entitlement.

The first, an oral rape by a lad I went to school with (along with a string of other sexual assaults) was definitely about entitlement.

We weren't even going out. He knew I fancied him, but was obviously rather insulted and inconvenienced by the whole thing. Instead of simply being pleasant to me, he decided my whole existence at school was a thorn in his side, so he decided to take matters into his own hands by taking me to a car park and hoping I'd be so horrified by what he did, I'd leave him alone.

Unfortunately for him, my brain couldn't compute what he'd done, and the only way I could deal with it was to pretend it never happened and so I was even nicer to him afterwards him, whilst having a breakdown that lasted months. He responded by telling everybody I was obsessed with him and crazy. He told lies about me, and managed to turn the whole of my year against me. I left under a cloud. Even the teachers took his side, although to be fair I never told anybody what had happened - I could gauge their response from the negative response to the minor stuff that nobody would ever believe me.

I expect he thinks he did nothing wrong - he even turned up to our 25 year high school anniversary in October! I, on the other hand will never be able to go to anything like that, in case I have to see him again. Now, that's entitlement.

I turned to drink after that. My next rape was a drunken one, because I didn't care enough anymore. The police told me I ought to be ashamed of myself crying rape. I remember them telling me to have a heart for the poor guy who was down the police station in the middle of the night with his family.

He also had a sense of entitlement. I said no, he did it anyway, I screamed for him to get off me, which he did eventually because I was being too loud, but he was pissed off with me, and it was all a bit 'I've started, so I'll finish' and he shut me up by forcing me to give him a blow job, so I couldn't scream. I've never been able to do oral sex since.

Then again, I was drunk, brazilianandjapanise, so perhaps I shouldn't have left my laptop on the doorstep.

There is definitely a far wider societal problem here.

Apologies for the typos!

Was shocked and disappointed by this but not surprised. Women (and men) should have the same rights to drink as much as they like without getting raped- it's up to the rapists to moderate their illegal and unacceptable behaviour.

ElfrideSwancourt it's up to the rapists to moderate their illegal and unacceptable behaviour.
of course.
But realistically that won't happen.
There will always be an element of society who are violent and criminal.

It's idealistic to think that can be altered.

Why do people have locks of their homes and cars, why have burglar alarms?

Why is rape always compared to burglary as opposed to a violent crime against the person like GBH or murder?

Where is all the common sense 'don't get murdered' advice, why are judges not seizing on murder cases to send a message to the public 'now come on ladies, don't , you might get murdered' ?

Rape is nothing like burglary. So why does the comparison come up again and again?

OK

I have a teenage son who sometimes goes out drinking at weekends.

There is a street in the city which is notorious for violence at night ( some men seek it out).
My son and his friends avoid pubs in this area because they don't want to be subject to violence.

Should I advise him to stroll this area with his head held high?

No I advise him to avoid that area of town.
Is that victim blaming?

*Where is all the common sense 'don't get murdered' advice, why are judges not seizing on murder cases to send a message to the public 'now come on ladies, don't , you might get murdered' ?
*

But there is advice.

I lived in SE Asia for a while. As a single white woman it would have been madness to walk alone at night in some areas. The risk of rape or worse would have been very high. Call it victim blaming if you like.
I call it self preservation.

Well, I feel pretty judged by that comment, skerry.

As a seventeen year old with a drink problem, should I just never have left the house?

*Well, I feel pretty judged by that comment, skerry. hmm angry

As a seventeen year old with a drink problem, should I just never have left the house?*

Excuse me?

Page has said exactly what I was trying to say, just more eloquently.

There are people out there who will take advantage of vunerable people and that includes men who take advantage of vunerable women. Whilst you can't stop rap uses altogether, the point the judge us making is tat by not getting very drunk to the point if vulnerability which some folk do unfortunatley you can then stop those horrid people from preying in the vunerable by simply taking tat out of the equation.
Like I say some rapists will pounce regardless, but not all, some cowards will pick their moment, judges point? Don't allow them that moment by maintaining as much control as possible, by bring vunerable, they have the power, not getting as drunk means you keep that power and the cowards who rape like this won't find it as easy to take advantage.
It would be nice to think that we shouldn't have to consider this but some cowardly idiots just can't be trusted and it's not a perfect world, we can't just do as we please and trust people will be nice and leave us be.

What about the point I made earlier in the thread tiddlypom?

That a parent advising their child - of course, try and reduce your vulnerability.

But a judge advising the general population - some of which are long term vulnerable, and don't have the choice to moderate it - it sounds an awful lot like there are certain groups that she is willing to throw to the dogs (or rapists) as long as nice girls aren't getting drunk.

As I said before it smacks of 'look after yourself, good girls, and leave being raped to those who are no better than they should be'

A somewhat unavoidable message when advising your own children one to one, but a shameful one coming from a public figure.