Judge's warning to drunk women

[FirstShinyRobe]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39233617

AIBU to think she had a marvellous platform with her retirement speech to issue instead a warning to men not to rape women?

My rapist, and many others, don't care about the state of their victim, they're only interested in their sexual urge and getting what they want. As in the snip of the testimony from the rapist I posted up thread.

The judge isn't saying anything new by talking about drunk women and rape. She would have been a lone public voice if she'd addressed that male entitlement that leads to rape.

And then maybe (but probably not) that's what news programmes would be leading with today, rather than feeding into reasonable doubt quandries for future jurors.

But it is insulting to everyone, including the victim if we all tip toe around and say that it could have happened a 3pm in her local Sainsbury's, while perfectly sober.

And if such a rape did happen, then what? Should she have walked alone around Sainsbury's? There is no such thing as perfectly sober. Everything we eat produces an alcoholic effect on our system.

There will always be men who rape & take advantage, that's a fact that & will never change. Just saying 'it's the man's fault & they shouldn't do it' is not going to stop rape. Women need to stay as safe as possible & not put themselves in vulnerable situations. Look after yourself, don't expect anyone else to do it for you.

Mel I'm sorry for what happened to you and I'm glad your attacker was caught.

I interpret what he was saying as he targeted you because he knew he could get away with it based on how society views young women drinking and walking home alone. Those views could change and then women in that situation would not be targeted for that reason.

Maybe if you'd not been there it wouldn't have happened to you but it might have happened to Marie who was walking home after her nightshift or Annie who sleeps in the park because she's nowhere else to go. Maybe if you'd got in a taxi the driver might have been a sex offender. Someone is always at risk whilst as a society we don't do very much to target offenders and their behaviour.

When I go on holiday somewhere the foreign office puts the responsibility on me to keep safe. Advice re where to go, where to avoid.

Does this mean they condone the criminal activity at play, or are they just using whatever tools they have in their box to keep its citizens as safe as possible while still having a range of life experiences?

It's very stupid to say if she had said something different then the outcome would have been xyz. Criticism would have been levelled from some angle I image.

There are newspapers to sell, after all.

Today in the Sunday Times Magazine there is an article about Thordis Elva and her rapist, Tom Stranger, who came together years after she was raped - at her instigation. They have been giving talks about what he did and how it affected her and him and have written a book about it.

He was her boyfriend of 18, an exchange student from Australia in Iceland. He was from a stable, happy home. She was 16, and became girlfriend and boyfriend in a romantic way and she had lost her virginity to him. Shortly after, they had gone to the school prom night where she drank some rum and became so drunk people had wanted to call an ambulance. Instead, her boyfriend said he's take her home. He had been drinking too but was not drunk the way she was.
He raped her over two hours. She remained almost unconscious because of the rum and unable to stop anything, but mentally she tried to dissociate herself. She was bruised and sore for days. He dumped her two days after the rape. Her life was destroyed.

He said that in his mind afterwards he had modified what he had done by not not seeing it as being rape, but just as sex with his girlfriend after a night out, which he was entitled to.

I do think that this is what a lot of men who have been drinking think.
For some men, sex is seen as a right and expectation in drunken settings, and they square it away with themselves in their mind as being sex not rape.

A questionnaire on men, purposely never using the word 'rape', found a high proportion admitted they would get a woman drunk to have sex with her; and some admitted they would force sex if they thought they could.

There is no such thing as perfectly sober. Everything we eat produces an alcoholic effect on our system

relevance?

Elendon

I would like to ask you a question though. If a stranger jumped out on a woman and raped her and it was discovered that she walked alone in the night through a park whilst having had a drink, would you think for a second that she was responsible for the attack?

Yet again, I don't think there is a SINGLE poster on this thread that would think it was anyone's else's fault or responsibility other than the actual RAPIST. However, I will still be advising my daughters to take care not to put themselves in a position where they may be vulnerable.

(I also give the same advice to my sons). I might ask who they are going with and if they would like a lift home or not. I might tell them to make sure they are careful with their drinks. Why on earth wouldn't I. If they ignored all my advice and were attacked then the suggestion that I might blame them is really awful and insulting. It obviously wouldn't be their fault and I wouldn't think it for one second.

BTW Would you literally not give your DC any advice about staying safe if they go out drinking?

I'm not denying that there are some rape apologists in the world, and that there are some awful views on what women should and shouldn't do. I have no issue with posters being angry with these people - I am myself! however I don't think there is a single poster on this thread that fits that description.

Exactly, there will always be rapists or attackers about despite educating, like unfortunately there are people that still drink and drive despite all the campaigns. You can keep yourself safe by not going in a car of someone who has been drinking and driving, or not getting totally drunk that you are unaware of your faculties and make unsafe decisions, like going in unregistered taxi, or taking a walk through a dark field, instead of booking a taxi, or just lying there in a gutter totally vulnerable.

Elendon
Everything we eat produces an alcoholic effect on our system.

What a bizarre and irrelevant comment? I'm not sure if you are just trying to wind people up with comments like that?

I think it's the meaning attributed to the drinking that makes people vulnerable as much as the impaired judgement and physicality. If a rapist is so inclined a woman that's had a drink is less likely to be believed so less likely to go to the police and if she did they're more likely to no crime it and if not that then the cps are more likely to not take it to court and even if they did a jury are more likely to say not guilty because she is a woman going out drinking and what did she expect indulging in such risky behaviour? If it were changed to raping a woman who's had a drink carries an additional 5 years due to her incapacity to consent and she'd always be given the benefit of the doubt do you think drunk women would still be targeted by rapists?

I actually feel sorry for any daughters of the posters screaming 'victim blaming', if you are seriously going to tell them they don't have to take any precautions for their safety because to do otherwise is to blame women for rape, I think it is massively irresponsible to tell this to a child.

a jury are more likely to say not guilty because she is a woman going out drinking and what did she expect indulging in such risky behaviour?

Do you really believe that!?

Isn't it more plausible that a particularly well read and sleazy lawyer can play the facts to their advantage and create enough reasonable doubt?

Their job is to defend their client, after all.

As in there is no such thing as perfectly sober. It simply doesn't exist. Which was a response to a poster who talked about being perfectly sober. As if women have to be perfect if they want to go out and about. Be perfectly sober. And the dress? Her looks? All is taken into account when it comes to the heinous crime of rape. It's all about the victim.

I actually feel sorry for any daughters of the posters screaming 'victim blaming', if you are seriously going to tell them they don't have to take any precautions for their safety

I've been wondering if these same posters let their young children play in the road because every driver should be paying attention and not run them down. I mean children have a right to play, don't they.

Which was a response to a poster who talked about being perfectly sober. As if women have to be perfect if they want to go out and about. Be perfectly sober.

I was that poster. You're twisting my words. You'd have much in common with my aforementioned sleazy lawyers.

It's never equal though.

How many mothers have to sit their son down before a night out and say, "Be careful son, some women aren't very nice and may inappropriately touch you or even rape you. You might not be able to fight them off - so stick with other guys at all times, don't get drunk and never walk alone. These women may prey on you."

I think that Mums do have to say this to their daughters because society is doing fuck all about it. So yes I would tell a daughter to be careful and stick with friends and don't leave with a stranger because I don't want them hurt but the attitude sticks.

But then I'd say to not drink too much anyway to prevent alcohol poisoning or choking on vomit and sticking with friends so you don't get lost.

I think teaching the good men about consent and what it means in those areas some men find blurred lines. So for example -

• If a woman is very drunk but still flirting with you, don't do it. She's not able to give consent.
  • as a side note to this to be able to tell when someone is just a bit merry and perfectly capable of giving consent and when someone is inebriated and cannot.

• If your wife/girlfriend says no firmly, it's not OK to then touch them up/rub against them to change their mind. Sure ask 'Any way I could persuade you - a nice massage, maybe?' Or something similar but do not do unwanted touching if she doesn't want it.

• When messaging someone online on a dating site or FB etc unless you are asked for it or heavily hinted at - don't send pictures of your genitals. We didn't want it, so don't force it on us. Equally, don't ask for pictures from a woman unless she offers them herself. Even then she's left in a potentially vulnerable position, so please don't keep it indefinitely.

These 3 things would be a good start and would help the 'normal' men who may have crossed the line. Naturally it won't stop the sadistic rapists, opportune rapists or the power hungry rapists but it will help women and men alike know where that boundary is.

"Having your home burgled is not comparable to being violently attacked." No it's not, rape is far worse, yet when have you ever heard of burglary victims being told 'you shouldn't have such nice things' 'well you don't have a burglar alarm do you?'

'Read the whole transcript' - 'yes but' is no better than just the 'but' bit being referred to.

"use the drunkenness as a defence" shouldn't be allowed.

"or dress like prostitutes." Nobody has twisted what you said. It was very clear what you meant.

Every time I was assaulted I was wearing modest even unattractive clothes, including on one occasion a mans coat and wellies!

"He said that in his mind afterwards he had modified what he had done by not not seeing it as being rape, but just as sex with his girlfriend after a night out, which he was entitled to." This is what I said earlier, most rapists known to victims, most rapists don't think they are rapists!

SarcasmMode I would tell my son to be careful with gaining consent if someone comes on to him, so he isn't falsely accused of rape. X

when have you ever heard of burglary victims being told 'you shouldn't have such nice things' 'well you don't have a burglar alarm do you?'

I've heard people say things like, "well they can stand to lose a few quid" - everyone loves a Robin Hood!

Some rapists are not sadistic though. They are perfectly normal, lovely men. They have children and adore them. They are sexually attractive and good at sex. They just don't get that when we say no, please respect this.

And yes of course if you want to go out showing all your attributes then feel free . It is not for me to judge

"showing all your attributes" is you judging.

Why is being drunk able to cause reasonable doubt in a rape trial if it makes no difference to the jury? Why would a lawyer waste their time with it if it makes no difference?

What if the law was changed so that if a victim had been drinking that it was automatically seen as rape because alcohol is deemed to impair someone's ability to consent therefore they could not consent. Would rapists still target drunk women? Who would they go after next?

As this thread demonstrates Opal girls are most more likely to be raped than boys being accused of false rape.

What if the law was changed so that if a victim had been drinking that it was automatically seen as rape

So women who want slightly drunken sex cannot have it whether they like it or not because the law decrees that they can't consent? Is that a serious suggestion?