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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Judge's warning to drunk women

985 replies

FirstShinyRobe · 10/03/2017 21:47

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39233617

AIBU to think she had a marvellous platform with her retirement speech to issue instead a warning to men not to rape women?

OP posts:
OpalFruitsMarathonsandSpira · 11/03/2017 13:18

Can you give evidence if you are so legless (through choice) about what happened?

Is that evidence reliable?

Is in not possible that in her career she has seen so many women that should have been believed but because of the role of alcohol in the case they couldn't convict?

HandbagCrab · 11/03/2017 13:23

Thinking that pushing rape onto other groups of vulnerable women is a solution makes me feel ill. My dd is lucky that she has parents that give a shit about her and enough money that when she is older she can always afford to get home safely. Hopefully things will stay this way but that's not the case for every dd and whilst the focus is always on women and what are they doing to prevent being raped the women that can't do those things will be targeted in the knowledge that no one will give a shit and their rape will be highly unlikely to result in any conviction. Shit for everybody.

Elendon · 11/03/2017 13:25

just telling criminals not to be criminals has never really taken off has it.

It has actually. Don't drink and drive because it's a criminal offence to do so for a start. You will loose your licence to drive if you are a new driver and caught whilst driving with a mobile phone. Again it's a criminal offence, that could end you up in jail, for three whole years like the rapist. So therefore a heinous crime.

RApe is one of the hardest crimes to prosecute and there are very many different types and situations . unfortunately it is not as black and white as you all wish it to be . Now why is it hard to prosecute, it being one of the most offensive of crimes and why is it not as black and white if it is one of the most offensive of crimes? Or is it not that offensive? After all he only got six years, he'll be out in three. Then he's free to rape someone else.

Elendon · 11/03/2017 13:31

Can you give evidence if you are so legless (through choice) about what happened?

Well yes you can. If you were walking home drunk and hit by a car, whilst on the pavement, your testimony would be taken into account. Legless people don't usually walk home by themselves, unless they go out drinking by themselves and are not with a group. No matter. I would ring an ambulance or the police if I saw someone trying to walk legless home. Who wouldn't help?

How can you possibly rape someone who is legless anyway? Seriously, if they are lying on the ground so drunk that they can't stand up, they need help.

Elendon · 11/03/2017 13:38

Basically, what some posters on this thread are saying that if you are walking home and are attacked by a complete stranger and raped, but if you had a drink, then you are to blame. So even stranger rape is not without it's defence. Man jumps out from behind a hedge and rapes you? Did you have a drink that night? Oh well, love, you should have been more responsible.

WetPaint4 · 11/03/2017 13:44

Advising people to keep safe is not a bad thing. You will not get rid of the evil scum roaming the planet so we need to be more aware of who and how they are likely to attack. Rapes don't always fit into that box (where someone has been unconscious or too drunk to fight back) but who is more vulnerable to the opportunistic rapist - the sober woman walking with 5 or 6 friends or the barely conscious woman slumped alone on a bench?

Tell a rapist he shouldn't rape and he's hardly gonna go "yeah that's a good idea". But highlighting the vulnerabilities that people expose themselves to - not just a sexual attack but a mugging, or getting lost, or losing phones, keys, purses etc - when you're so drunk you have severely limited control is a statement that should be made.

armsandtheman · 11/03/2017 13:45

This has reminded me of a time I was very drunk and a male friend offered to walk me home. I'd known him a while and whilst we kissed that night I made it very clear that I wouldn't be sleeping with him and he had to go home once he'd dropped me off. Of course he wouldn't give home and kept pushing for sex. I had to get my male flat mates to chuck him out in the end.

The problem wasn't that I was drunk. I knew and trusted him so I'd probably have made the same call sober. The problem was he was and so just didn't process my very clear no. If he'd been sober maybe the message would have reached him.

I was lucky but for so many the ending would have been different that night as they may have been alone. The message should be aimed at rapists. If drink affects your judgement so you don't hear the word no then stay sober. Although I'm sure there are also many sober rapists. It's crap really isn't it. It should never even be implied that it's the victim's fault.

Once I'd got rid of him one of my female flat mates told me that if I didn't drink so much it wouldn't have happened. The felt even worse.

OpalFruitsMarathonsandSpira · 11/03/2017 13:48

How can you possibly rape someone who is legless anyway? Seriously, if they are lying on the ground so drunk that they can't stand up, they need help.

Are you for real?! How can rape occur if someone is legless? Same as it can occur if someone is unconscious.

How ignorant are you!? That's akin to the anti-abortion 'argument' that you can't get pregnant unless you are relaxed, so you can't get pregnant through rape. Hmm

squishee · 11/03/2017 13:51

A woman who has been raped may not have been if she had not been drunk. She certainly would not have been, had she not met a rapist.
What about "Don't rape women, drunk or otherwise"?

Deadsouls · 11/03/2017 13:51

**Elendon

Basically, what some posters on this thread are saying that if you are walking home and are attacked by a complete stranger and raped, but if you had a drink, then you are to blame. So even stranger rape is not without it's defence. Man jumps out from behind a hedge and rapes you? Did you have a drink that night? Oh well, love, you should
have been more responsible.**

I don't know which posters you refer to. Speaking for myself, no basically that is not what I'm saying at all. To be honest dividing the argument up into, because you say this, it must mean...etc is really simplistic.
Advising women/girls to be aware of that their safety may be compromised if they drink too much is not the same as saying women are responsible for men raping them.

GeorgeTheHamster · 11/03/2017 13:52

She did call out the actions of the men.

But she's right in what she says about the women. She has spent thirty years presiding over trials including many many rapes. She's saying what she sees having happened, week in, week out, in Manchester city centre.

I tell my teenagers to stay safe and not get so drunk they can't do that. I also tell them it isn't their fault if they get attacked. But there are things we can do to stay safe and it's idiotic to pretend otherwise.

Deadsouls · 11/03/2017 13:52

And besides that wasn't the original point that the OP was trying to make, by my understanding. The OP thought that the judge could've used her platform and influence to place an onus on responsibility upon men who rape. Which I don't disagree with.

milliemolliemou · 11/03/2017 13:58

Just a quick point - the fact that 50% of rapes are committed by someone the victim knows doesn't mean alcohol isn't involved on one side or both.

InsiderOut · 11/03/2017 13:58

Eledon
Basically, what some posters on this thread are saying that if you are walking home and are attacked by a complete stranger and raped, but if you had a drink, then you are to blame. So even stranger rape is not without it's defence. Man jumps out from behind a hedge and rapes you? Did you have a drink that night? Oh well, love, you should have been more responsible.

WTF, you are making this up as you go along. Not one single poster has said anything remotely like that. It's hard to discuss this and understand other people's points of view when some of the statements are so ridiculous and blatantly untrue.

I don't agree with the OPs point of view but because she is making her points rationally and logically I understand what she means. Her posts are thoughtful and are making me think. I still don't 'agree' as I can't possibly imagine how it would be better to NOT to tell my daughters to be careful and to try not to put themselves in situations where they might be more vulnerable. I also don't agree because I actually know that I would never blame anyone other than the actual rapist if someone was raped.

melj1213 · 11/03/2017 13:59

Elendon I am one of the people on this thread advocating for people taking personal responsibility for their own safety but that doesn't mean that my rape was my fault.

I can control my actions and my decisions, I cannot control other people's. Had I made different choices the night I was raped - to drink less, to spend longer trying to find my friends, to get a taxi home, to have walked the 15 minutes home along the well lit busy road instead of cutting through the unlit, deserted parkbecause it was quicker - then I probably would not have put myself in the position where it could happen.

If I had made different choices with regard to my personal safety I would have never taken the risk that put me in a dark, unlit park alone at 4am where anything could have happened - from being raped, beaten up, robbed, murdered to even just hurting myself and potentially being left lying there until someone found me in the morning (and in the middle of winter I could have been dead by then). In my case I ended up raped and that is 100% the fault of my rapist but that doesn't mean I was in no way responsible for any of the situation that lead up to it.

My rapist was eventually caught (not because of my rape but because he was arrested for different charges and his DNA was matched to the samples on file from my report) and he admitted that one of the reasons he had attacked me was because he knew that he was unlikely to get caught - he'd been on the way home himself and seen me staggering home alone, clearly drunk, and when he saw me head into the park he knew there'd be very little chance anyone would hear or see anything if he attacked me so he'd taken his chances.

Elendon · 11/03/2017 13:59

I haven't been following your posts Deadsoul so obviously I'm not referring to you.

I would like to ask you a question though. If a stranger jumped out on a woman and raped her and it was discovered that she walked alone in the night through a park whilst having had a drink, would you think for a second that she was responsible for the attack?

Datun · 11/03/2017 14:00

If tomorrow the punishment for the conviction of rape was immediate castration does anyone seriously think the rape stats would not go down? And no, I'm not advocating that.

But there is a direct link between putting the focus on the criminal (and punishment) to the reduction of crime.

I'm sure we all take precautions and I'm sure we all realise that it makes little difference to the statistics.

Imagine if that judge had stood up, slammed her fist on the desk and said that rape is a despicable crime committed by despicable people and she is demanding a minimum sentence of 20 years for each and every conviction.

Even though everyone on this post knows that she is absolutely RIGHT there would be carnage and outrage.

Why?

GeorgeTheHamster · 11/03/2017 14:01

What she actually said - sorry if it's been posted before:

Kushner told Manchester crown court that women should be free to do whatever they wanted without the risk of being attacked. But, she said, they should still be aware that some people are likely to see them as easier targets when they are drunk.

“We judges who see one sexual offence trial after another, have often been criticised for suggesting and putting more emphasis on what girls should and shouldn’t do than on the act and the blame to be apportioned to rapists,” she said, while sentencing a man to six years for raping a girl who was drunk.

“There is absolutely no excuse and a woman can do with her body what she wants and a man will have to adjust his behaviour accordingly. But, as a woman judge, I think it would be remiss of me if I didn’t mention one or two things.

“I don’t think it’s wrong for a judge to beg women to take actions to protect themselves. That must not put responsibility on them rather than the perpetrator. How I see it is burglars are out there and nobody says burglars are OK but we do say: ‘Please don’t leave your back door open at night, take steps to protect yourselves’.

“It should not be like that but it does happen and we see it time and time again.”

She added: “They are entitled to do what they like but please be aware there are men out there who gravitate towards a woman who might be more vulnerable than others. That’s my final line, in my final criminal trial, and my final sentence.”

melj1213 · 11/03/2017 14:03

How can you possibly rape someone who is legless anyway? Seriously, if they are lying on the ground so drunk that they can't stand up, they need help.

Seriously?! You're wondering why a criminal would ignore the physical state of their victim whilst committing their crime because they should be thinking about getting the person - that they have no issue violating despite knowing it's wrong - help for being drunk?!

My rapist, and many others, don't care about the state of their victim, they're only interested in their sexual urge and getting what they want.

melj1213 · 11/03/2017 14:04

I would like to ask you a question though. If a stranger jumped out on a woman and raped her and it was discovered that she walked alone in the night through a park whilst having had a drink, would you think for a second that she was responsible for the attack?

Responsible for getting raped? No

Responsible for putting herself in that situation? Yes

And that scenario is exactly what happened to me.

Elendon · 11/03/2017 14:06

I am one of the people on this thread advocating for people taking personal responsibility for their own safety but that doesn't mean that my rape was my fault.

But with all due respect, as we are both rape victims here; you by a stranger whilst having been drunk, and me with a person I loved and trusted, I'm all for having personal responsibility, but where does this responsibility end and the attack begin?

OpalFruitsMarathonsandSpira · 11/03/2017 14:07

I would like to ask you a question though. If a stranger jumped out on a woman and raped her and it was discovered that she walked alone in the night through a park whilst having had a drink, would you think for a second that she was responsible for the attack?

100% the blame at the rapists door. But it is insulting to everyone, including the victim if we all tip toe around and say that it could have happened a 3pm in her local Sainsbury's, while perfectly sober.

It is NOT HER FAULT but unfortunately she could have prevented that occurrence. That's the hard truth. I shouldn't have happened but it did and different choices would have prevented it. Difference is he is criminal, she was irresponsible.

I don't drive without insurance. I don't go out without insurance. It's just my going out insurance is staying in control and having an exit plan including cash for a journey home. If I don't have enough for that I can't afford a night out, in my opinion.

Elendon · 11/03/2017 14:08

Melj

Why should the crime committed against you be ever your fault?

It clearly wasn't.

Wtfdoipick · 11/03/2017 14:09

The message is rapists are responsible for rape but women watch what you drink, watch where you go, watch what you wear, watch what you do.

In other words a quick comment easily missed about men being responsible and a long list of things for women to do and that is the issue, it's about the balance in messages. Too much emphasis is put on women to protect themselves from rapists which is what I object to. Yes teach young people to keep themselves safe but don't put the onus on women to stop rape happening to them. You can teach about keeping safe without resorting to rape myths.

A lot of women are raped by partners or husbands but I've never seen advice not to get into a relationship or get married.

Aeroflotgirl · 11/03/2017 14:13

Even if you told men to rape, there are those who will just ignore, and go ahead and do what they want. For some, no amount of education will make an iota of difference.