Judge's warning to drunk women

[FirstShinyRobe]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39233617

AIBU to think she had a marvellous platform with her retirement speech to issue instead a warning to men not to rape women?

And women's behaviour has been judged for millennia. Has this stopped rape? No.

Women have put their enjoyment of a night out on the back burner for fear of being attacked for decades.

So what if you wear a short skirt (same as being drunk because you're dressing as a 'prostitute') or a low cut blouse.

Are women not entitled to go out and enjoy themselves and maybe meet up with someone?

Why don't we just ban women from going out. That will reduce the rate of rapes won't it?

Well, no it won't. Or do we actually believe that men who are partnered with women are entitled to sex? What if a woman has a few drinks in her home and is then raped by her partner? Whilst her children are asleep? Would we believe her? After all, she had a few drinks or was drunk. (Perhaps she'll be painted as a bad mother because she was drinking).

As lovely middle class mumsnet mums (JOKE, I know people here are from all walks of life), we all want to look after our daughters and tell them look after yourself, don't walk alone, phone me if you need to, here's some taxi money.... etc etc.

But as a judge, this woman should be thinking about the effects of her words on everybody. What about vulnerable, homeless, mentally ill 16 year old me, 'self-medicating' on drink and drugs? I was essentially incapable of protecting myself from harm so what was I? Responsible? When I was raped I didn't do enough to prevent it? FFS the most vulnerable members of society should be her greatest concern, not a troublesome aside to the main message of 'being vulnerable is most unfortunate, so let's all make sure we don't get in a difficult position, we'll leave that to the ones who are no better than they ought to be'.

It smacks of being an entitled prick tbh.

It would have been better if she had argued for changes in the legal system to increase the number and proportion of rapists being jailed.

@Batteriesallgone when I lived in nursing residences we had a serial peeping tom/wanker.

We were all called to a meeting and given 'helpful' hints on how to protect ourselves. Hints like always keep your windows and curtain shut, great at the height of summer in rooms that were on the same heating schedule as the hospital. Get dressed in the bathroom not your bedroom again great when there 6 of you sharing a bathroom and all on early shift. And various other.

When it was suggested to the police that as we knew he only comitted these offences on a Wednesday and Thursday that maybe they could up patrols around the residences at these time was met with WTF why should we do that? We're here 'helping' you and you want us to do more…with one of the officers telling us not to be so silly didn't we realise how busy they were with real criminals.

It took one on the (male) consultants threatening to go to the press to get anything done.

They caught him the first night they up-Ed patrols. He was wanted for a string of sexual assaults. Prick of an officer called it a triumph of active policing…

This was 15 or so years ago

The fact that women are still having to put up with been blamed for been women is exhausting.

FFS the most vulnerable members of society should be her greatest concern, not a troublesome aside to the main message of 'being vulnerable is most unfortunate, so let's all make sure we don't get in a difficult position, we'll leave that to the ones who are no better than they ought to be'.

Well said, Batteries. We're not second class citizens, even though society would sometimes like us to be!

She hasn't said it's ever the females fault, but we don't live in a world where you can leave your car unlocked and your house open, where children of any age are safe to accept lifts from strangers or where drink women aren't more vulnerable than sober women. It isn't a child's fault if they get kidnapped and it isn't a woman fault if she gets raped but there are things we can do to make them less vulnerable whilst also condemning the crime and punishing properly the criminal.

My nephew has been raised to understand "no" and to treat women how he's want his sister and mom treated. My Niece has been raised the same. They both understand that being fall over drunk males them more vulnerable, to learn their drink limits, to stick with friends, too call home if they're sick etc. It doesn't protect them 100% but it makes them safer from a multitude of crimes and accidents

I was reading this transcript earlier in the week, which I think might explain a little more about where I'm coming from. Rape isn't always about power, it's sometimes about entitlement. And that's what I'd like to see countered because I believe that attitude is depressingly common, hence my disappointment when the opportunity is missed.

"TS: From what I've now learnt, my actions that night in 1996 were a self-centered taking. I felt deserving of Thordis's body. I've had primarily positive social influences and examples of equitable behavior around me. But on that occasion, I chose to draw upon the negative ones. The ones that see women as having less intrinsic worth, and of men having some unspoken and symbolic claim to their bodies. These influences I speak of are external to me, though. And it was only me in that room making choices, nobody else"

www.ted.com/talks/thordis_elva_tom_stranger_our_story_of_rape_and_reconciliation/transcript?language=en

Agent yes the police suggested student nurses just get taxis home because they are so well known for being flush with cash....

And women's behaviour has been judged for millennia. Has this stopped rape? No.

Not stopped, unlikely anything will stop all crime. Reduction is best we can hope for. Not that I think that safety advice is quite the same thing as being judgmental about someone's behaviour.

Why don't we just ban women from going out. That will reduce the rate of rapes won't it?

That would impinge on freedoms too much. You are also why you are unlikely to see people advised to never leave their house at all as a measure to reduce burglary.

Actually, regarding the judgement: it's a bit like saying women should uphold their sanctity of virginity. Preserve yourself at all costs. Women.

Just like you should preserve the sanctity of your own home against burglaries.

I would still advise them to stay in groups not get absolutely legless or dress like prostitutes

Ooh , can you give me some advice? How do prostitutes dress so I can avoid being raped? I've got 3 pairs of over the knee boots- are they a rape risk?

You are also why you are unlikely to see people advised to never leave their house at all as a measure to reduce burglary.

But this impingement has happened before when under attack, say in WW2. Some older members of the community don't leave their home for fear of being broken into.

85,000 women are raped or sexually assaulted each year. I'd say that's an attack on women for being women.

If a rapist is going to rape whatever and you think telling women to drink less makes them less of a potential victim then who is he going to rape? We're not a pack of wildebeest to be inevitability picked off one by one^

That is spot on.

Obviously being legless or dressing as a prostitute means you are partly to blame Lass.

Dressing as a prostitute, and being legless is the same thing. A judgement on behaviour. It doesn't matter what you wear or how much you had to drink. You are slutty and asking for it.

Elendon But this impingement has happened before when under attack, say in WW2. Some older members of the community don't leave their home for fear of being broken into.

Maybe people would do the same now if there was a spate of looting and it became very likely that an unoccupied house would be broken into. It's all a tradeoff isn't it. For normal times however, the general risk is not high enough to warrant such a freedom-impinging measure. Whereas taking the effort to lock up before you leave is not too impinging.

And it is for similar reasons that they may advise not getting legless or leaving drinks unattended etc, without having to go to the extreme of suggesting no woman ever goes out.

But what is the general risk of rape if you're intoxicated vs targeted by someone who would rape you anyway?

I suppose there is an element of some people not helping themselves by getting wasted. We know there are bad people on this planet so why would you knowingly place yourself in a vulnerable position?

That being said: the source of the problem is that there sadly are bad people in the world and they should be targeted instead. However, that is not something that our society is very good at. We are very reactive and that is why victim blaming has become a norm. And not just in terms of rape: People have had to go through court for fighting off burglars because they injured the burglar.

The world is upside down. So the judge's comments are not surprising. Just terribly sad.

The best and most surprising thing anyone ever did for me, it wasn't unusual to hang around your local, a few lads asked if I wanted to go into town, I was maybe 15. I wasn't into drugs, I didn't really drink, somehow we got separated, whether they thought it was a laugh or not. Not sure.

Any way an older guy, late 20's, early 30's collered me for a chat, I thought being all naive I pulled. I think he saw what the crowd I was with had done. He asked did I know how I was to get home, I suggested it was a 4 mile walk not the end of the world. He gave me £5 to make sure I got home safe. £5 was quite a lot back then, I thought the guy was crazy, he just wanted to give me enough for a taxi & a phonecall home.

This place was seedy, so he wanted me out of there, one guy had cottoned on that I was alone, whilst embarrassed now, I remember him offering money and daring me to put my hands down his trousers. Being a twat I did, he just laughed and called me a slag. Don't know how he laughed he wasn't anything spectacular himself. The word was if you got lucky it was really grown up to go back to a guys house, I was generally desperate to be loved anyway, not that it's an excuse. So a boyfriend as old as small cock was, it'd be cred at school, plus he was on the party scene extra cred, was fed the usual cock & bull of great car, own house, amazing job, I didn't think to question it then.

I'm ever grateful to the older guy making sure I was safe all these years later.

I'd hate for my daughter to give herself away so cheaply like I did. I had a boyfriend eventually when I was 16, 5+ years older, mates with my Dad etc, also wouldn't shut the feck up about his ex and the relationship. She was always about too as they shared the same mates. I remember him adjusting her bra strap which pissed me off, her boyfriend was right next to her. I used to go to school from his house, which looking back was creepy, any way you looked at it.

I know it's a pipe dream that DD or DS will heed my advice about waiting till they meet the right person. They're lucky that I give more of a shit and would support them more, hopefuly to make better life choices.

In my day although I guess nothing much has changed, my Mum thought I was a slut for having 3 boyfriends by 18. If it's not your Mum then society pressures you to think that way. I used to hate myself that I wasn't this virtuous virgin, who waited for the right guy, for that special moment which is seldom special at that age, not having the first idea what you're doing.

I remember my Mum finding the morning after pill after routing through my bag. I'd got it as a precaution more than anything. She said I'd be so ill after taking the MAP I'd never want sex again, in an angry you're vile kind of way. Luckily in a sense I had gynae problems from when I started my periods, so was infertile, so I didn't end up going down the route a lot of girls at school did, having a kid by 18. With that lad that was older I thought having a baby would change the world, luckily it never happened, although confused what I was doing wrong.

I know it diverts away a bit from the context of the OP, but I'm willing to say how immature I was and how I could have got into a situation through naivety. In them days, if you were on the town and you were sexually assaulted/raped, the police would have laughed you all the way home. I think attitudes were more misogynistic then. I also wanted to share the mindset some young women may have. I'll advocate my daughter should never judge herself, to both that you can't judge another person by how many people they've slept with. I know that's another misconception, well it wasn't rape as she'd sleep with any guy who bought her a few drinks.

I think there was a lot of historical attacks, not reported, because of how women and their actions were viewed. A family would blame the girl usually.

There was that guy in London not so long ago who targeted women and murdered them into the bargain. They were viewed as easy targets. Another involving a guy who did similar with men, one night hook ups on the net that never made it home. The undertones of both articles was pretty much they were to blame for their own demise.

Obviously being legless or dressing as a prostitute means you are partly to blame Lass

Dressing as a prostitute, and being legless is the same thing. A judgement on behaviour. It doesn't matter what you wear or how much you had to drink. You are slutty and asking for it

I'm really confused now. I had a very "Pretty Woman" style of boots when I was 19 and was often legless. I've never been raped.
Maybe it was because I paired the "prostitute" boots with a pair of skin tight velvet jean a rapist would have struggled to remove? Puzzling isn't it?

I do know someone who was raped at the time I was flaunting myself- she didn't look or dress anything like me.

Maybe I just never met rapists?

'Maybe' you haven't met any rapists Lass, but how would you know they were rapists?

Surely they didn't have 'rapist' tattooed onto their head?

I've never seen 'Pretty Woman' so I don't know what you are referring to. I've seen the promotion picture, but wasn't interested in watching it.

Those thigh high boots were quite the expensive item in my day, similar to yours, but they were not in all the high street shoe shops like they are now.

I used to wear hotpants and high thigh dark stockings. With bleached Madonna hair. I wasn't raped then either.

I was raped though. By someone I trusted and loved. I went on to marry and have three children with him.

Has it occurred to anyone that telling rapists not to rape may not actually be all that effective as it goes against their interests (ie to rape). Yep, just telling criminals not to be criminals has never really taken off has it.

Whereas telling women to take personal responsibility with their safety is more likely to be effective, as it is consistent with their interests.

There's a difference between what's morally right and what's practically more likely to work. And, of course, taking precautions with safety will lead less women into the path of rapists.. but we never get to hear about the rapes that could have, but didn't happen, do we?

I NEVER said the clothing was to blame . Some people seem determined to twist words to suit their agenda. THe rapist is always to blame . Never the victim. Which is what the judge said as well . RApe is one of the hardest crimes to prosecute and there are very many different types and situations . unfortunately it is not as black and white as you all wish it to be . IS that not obvious from some of the recent cases in the news which have had to go to appeal ? Sometimes with possibly the wrong result in the end?

The pretty woman in "Pretty Woman" is a prostitute. Can't remember which poster brought up not dressing like a prostitute as a rape deterrent. I wonder how she would have described me if she had seen me? I used to wear loads of heavy black eye make up too.

Some of the comments on here are unbelievable and making light of a very serious subject. I am glad you found my post so amusing . I enjoy a good discussion but women slagging off other women is petty. And yes of course if you want o go out showing all your attributes then feel free . It is not for me to judge and perhaps my comment was over the top . But I agree with the very experienced judge who has got rapists off our streets by jailing them .And I am entitled to my opinion as well. Just try reading all she said without using them for your own agendas.These also are my last words on this thread. Some of you might get the relevance of that

There's a difference between what's morally right and what's practically more likely to work. And, of course, taking precautions with safety will lead less women into the path of rapists.. but we never get to hear about the rapes that could have, but didn't happen, do we?

Exactly.

As I posted earlier on the thread, I was raped whilst I was at University. I got drunk on a night out with friends and got seperated on the way home and I ended up alone, legless in a dark secluded park at 4am where I was attacked.

What happened was entirely my rapists fault however, if I had been less drunk I might not have lost my friends, or I might not have decided to cut through the park or I might not have made any number of decisions I did that night and I would not have put myself in the situation where my rape could occur.

That night in my drunken state I made the assumption, that many people on this thread have advocated for, that I can walk wherever I want, whenever I want with the expectation that I will not be attacked ... but I still got raped because I cannot control other people's behaviour and decisions, only my own.

That is why, I will continue to tell my DD not to walk down dark alleyways alone on the way home from her friends' houses and when she's old enough to go out partying (which is a long way off yet!) I will be telling her to make sure she stays with her friends and not get too drunk that she loses control.