To be terrified about what will happen if the Gender Identity Bill is passed?

[TheWorldAccordingToToads]

I'm a nervous wreck right now

Will it replace sex as a protected characteristic? Does that mean that women will have no legal protection at all?

I'm scared .

But where is all this bollocks coming from and how come the lunatics are infiltrating education?

My son hates urinals. He thinks they stink and are unhealthy. He doesn't like exposing his genitals in front of his peers (and who would blame him in this) in order to empty his bladder.

( I don't. Our local shops don't even have a public loo. I work from home. I don't eat out. However I can understand that those who do would have some problems with some kinds of transpeople sharing the facilities.

And at home no I don't share with the boys - we hvae en suites so tend not to venture into each other's territory but we are all related so it's not quite the same as a stranger. I've wiped their bottoms and breastfed them so I feel a bit closer to them than I would to a random trans woman.

Men are pretty pushy and shout women down. If statistics about violence against men start to include trans people reporting that could skew the stats to the detriment of women - I can see how that could be an issue.

I would like not to have to pout my gender on my passport however. and I was appalled to see an advert for kinder surprise which had now issued girl (pink obviously ) and boy eggs. It was always gender neutral - we get this girl and boy stuff foisted on us so much when we want children just to be free and gender neutral in their play.

That CPS pack !
Why aren't they using examples of males learning to be accepting of non gender conforming males in the toilets?

I'm pretty sure that you could state that due to your beliefs, you need to be examined by someone who is a woman by sex. I think I got that right. It's gender that many believe is a social construct.

I honestly can't imagine for example, a Muslim woman, especially a very devout one who has her partner accompanying her for medical examinations, would ever be allowed someone who has a penis but identifies as a woman, to perform an intimate check on her. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe there to be religion based issues.

So I can't see why it would be different for anyone else. Just like Catholics in the medical field can say I refuse to treat women seeking abortions on religious grounds.

I can see why you would be worried, but I don't think gynaecologists go in for the job because they get to stare at vagina's all day. My experience in gynaecology, it's rare they insist on vaginal examinations, unless your issue is based in that area, such as prolapse or vaginal irritation where you get pain internally and externally if that makes sense.

Those vulnerable, such as rape victims, domestic violence victims, usually jobs have the right to specify who they employ. Any charity, organisation or professional body, will recognise that this could be harmful and put measures in place.

Although as someone with gynae issues, at times I'm in so much pain I don't care who is down there, as long as they can sort the issue. I also want to highlight I can see that some women just wouldn't want a man doing such things, just as a preference, with no underlying background trauma. What's to say your doctor, gynaecologist, nurse or sonographer born female, isn't sexually attracted to women. Surely if that's the reason why you'd want a female to examine you, it's flawed.

I totally understand why it's a definite no if you've been a victim of something where you NEED a female to examine you. I don't get the argument if it's merely a preference, where you've not got those issues and it isn't a theological issue.

I'm sorry if I sound ignorant, please educate me as to what I'm missing.

You think about GU clinics, all the vaginas they deal with in a day, it's not the most glamorous of jobs. I'm talking STI specialist centres.

Today 15:32 Oddsockspissmeoff

Crossdressing is a recognized sexual fetish. I think people don't understand the difference between trans people and those with this sexual fetish. I've read some of the forums and it's very very disturbing.

I agree. Except 'those with a sexual fetish' ARE trans. The ones who retain their genitalia and remain attracted to women.

Not anywhere, any guideline, any report, including the 98 pages of Maria Millars Parliamentary report is there a distinction. In fact not once in the 98 pages was the word fetish, AGP or autogynephile even mentioned. Much less addressed.

Many, many people told Maria Miller. But she refused to listen. I, myself sent citations, documents, web links, examples, the numerous scientific reports, links to websites that celebrate it, etc and I had a letter back saying that the very existence of this fetish was 'controversial'. Bloody controversial! What, despite all these forums devoted to the enjoyment of it?

I knew then that we were fucked.

1 in 3 women are raped or sexually assaulted at some point before 18 iirc. 1 in 4 will be victims of domestic violence. I'm sure ALL of us have been subjected to the 'lesser' forms of sexual harassment and assault like having our butt grabbed in clubs or voyeuristic men whistling at us or having our bra straps pinged as teens or the boys trying to look up our skirts or down our tops.

This littlerally still happens all of the time to women. And to girls. And that's just western women where we are considerable less likely to be forced into marriage, sex trafficked or subjected to fgm. (Which-again- ta's on my Twitter feed claimed was an offensive term to them!!!)

What's to say your doctor, gynaecologist, nurse or sonographer born female, isn't sexually attracted to women.

As far as I'm aware, women needing intimate examinations don't prefer a female doctor because of who they're attracted to

For me personally i just don't feel comfortable with a male doing such an intimate examination on me. Also, from experience male gynaecologists I have come across have been quite ignorant and obnoxious. But that's just my experience.

It's about dignity. If a woman feels more dignified exposing herself to a doctor that has the same genitals as her, it's her perogative.

Well it should be anyway.

I'm pretty sure that you could state that due to your beliefs, you need to be examined by someone who is a woman by sex. I think I got that right. It's gender that many believe is a social construct.

Yes, we here on mumsnet know that gender is a social construct and sex is real.

That is why we are against this gendernonsense.

Because while sure, we can still state we want to be examined by a woman, what we might get is a male who identifies as a woman. If we object to this, we will told off for being "transphobic"
Perhaps even imprisoned.

This might sound unbelievable, but I had a self-identified feminist (who was actually female) tell me that she found it "problematic" that I was against male (you know, with penis and male muscle and bone structure and all that) adults sharing rooms with female victims of domestic violence in shelters.

We do not live in a sane world anymore.

As far as I'm aware, women needing intimate examinations don't prefer a female doctor because of who they're attracted to

Fun fact: Statistically, the chance that my female gynecologist is a lesbian is smaller than the risk that my male gynecologist is a rapist or other form of sex offender.

The chance that a female gynecologist is lesbian AND a sex offender is ... almost non-existent.

The change that the male crossdresser who introduces himself as female doctor when I ask for a female doctor, is a sex offender is 100%, as he knowingly violates boundaries.

And bev yes I feel like we should be doing more. There is so so much I feel the need to campaign on just now, personally and politically, yet this is the issue that I'm thinking will ruin my daughters future and abolish womens' rights

I agree; it's terrifying.

I'm also concerned for myself from the other perspective. I AM a woman. I don't IDENTIFY as a woman. I reject gender.

So if I'm asked for my 'gender identity' not my 'sex' and I respond 'none,' presumably I now don't meet the requirements for a woman-only rape crisis centre because I don't identify as a woman? But a trans woman does?

So my choice will be to accept a gender identity that I utterly reject, or shut myself out of services that were built to support me, as a member of the class of women?

YY VestalVirgin

re: what would a trans toilet look like, I think a 'trans toilet' would be a unisex toilet. I have used unisex toilets both because some buildings just have one room with a sink rather than sinks and cubicles and because some buildings already have unisex toilets. Unisex toilets aren't just for trans people. They are for anybody wanting to avoid a queue and for people wanting to supervise or help an opposite sex child or dependent.

However, currently most toilets aren't designed to be unisex. They have urinals and don't offer enough privacy.

Vestal I hope you didn't take what I said the wrong way. I said that in response to a pp who said about intimate examinations. The point being that women aren't bothered about sexual orientation, it's about whether they have a penis.

Ofcourse it's their fault bev, just like I posted before about my girl who is petrifled of boys (and toilets) and would be hugely truamatised by a boy using the female toilets at school.

Bit I was told she would have to get over it because boys might have the same problems, which automaticly means they need access to her safe space more than she does.

Vestal I hope you didn't take what I said the wrong way. I said that in response to a pp who said about intimate examinations. The point being that women aren't bothered about sexual orientation, it's about whether they have a penis.

Oh, sorry, I was responding to the person you quoted. I totally agree with you.
Just wanted to make clear why I don't care about sexual attraction, but do care about sex. There's safety issues.

The most physically threatening man bangs on the toilet door, yelling “what you doing in there? You freak!” No teenager, male or female, would want to align themselves with the views of these old past-it men who clearly represent ‘old-fashioned ignorance.’ Their physically threatening response and offensive language paints them clearly as pantomime baddies. How did they get into the boys’ toilets in a secondary school?

Wait, why would he bang on the boy's toilet door? Men don't care if women use their toilets, many women do when there's a long queue at the women's, and unless the men are peeing at the urinal, I haven't ever heard that anyone minds. Why would they?

Is it not much, much more likely that he would just walk in behind the transvestite into the girls' toilet - because males are allowed in there, self-identification and all - and beat the transvestite boy up?

Sorry! Yes and totally agree with you. all too often the 'oh they could be lesbians' 'women sexually assault too' lines are dragged up and it's starting to grate on me.

Haven't RTFT, sorry.

From looking at the summary of the bill, it proposes to substitute 'gender reassignment' for the previously-existing 'gender reassignment' protected characteristic in the Equality Act. That's quite different from how the OP has characterised the bill.

Or find another word to describe herself, because she knows that being attracted to "anyone who identifies as woman" does not describe her sexuality.

The word is unfortunately ‘Terf’. Often accompanied with inclusive, loving statements such as 'die in a fire'.

Iris, can you point out the posts that state no one cares about the risk to trans people in male bathrooms and thinks they should just be thrown to the lions? Because I don't see any. Can you explain why you see absolutely no possible other solution to this (despite the several under discussion, see unisex loos for a start) than women being stripped of their rights and oppressed? The use of tragic statistics doesn't help much if you’re not making a point, only throwing them to try and invoke guilt and shaming people, as if the hope is women debating here will say ‘oh well if they’re so badly treated, go on then. Take my rights away, do awful social injustice to me and maybe somehow that’ll redress the balance’. Clue: it won’t.

No one has been 'driven' from this thread. Iris’s comment that she has said all she wishes to could be more accurately termed as a flounce. She is not being attacked. She is being asked to address and engage with actual conversation and appears frustrated that the ‘you should all be ashamed of yourselves’ tactics are not working to shut people down. Sounding superior, name calling, holding the nose and leaving in a dramatic show of disgust without actually bothering to engage, or listen, or actually try to win the argument using actual negotiation and conversational skills, is the legacy of New Labour, who introduced this Neo Liberal tactic during their reign to shut down and silence anyone ‘off message’. (Please see Animal Farm and 1984.) It has led so far directly to Brexit and Trump.

You see - this is the problem with this law. Up until now we have people who were born one sex but genuinely believe that they are another sex just quietly getting on with their lives and nobody cares or even notices. I was quite happy with that.

And now we can't have that any more. Either I have to go with Iris's view and welcome a convicted sexual predator into the women's changing rooms on the grounds that as of half an hour ago he decided he felt like a woman. Or I have to go with Datum's view and no longer recognise that some people do have a medical condition which makes it hard for them to conform with social norms.

I can no longer "live and let live" because it is no longer safe for me to do so.

Word.

See Brexit and Trump. No good thing happens when Neo Liberals force everyone to do as they are told or be shamed, silenced and erased. The pissed off masses not allowed to explain their problems with the agenda, and name called if they dare to even comment, are forced to silent extremism at the ballot box and everybody loses hugely. In particular, the people the Neo Liberals were busily patronising at the time.

EnormousTiger do you not share a toilet with your husband?

In the home, no matter who you are, you will share toilet facilities. However, they will be cubicles where you can go and pee in private. If someone walks in they and the the person inside will be both embarrassed. It's called being respectful of each others privacy.

But there are some who don't get this. Most are men, who like peeing in front of each other and the other is well, work that socialisation out for yourself.

Men are socialised to pee in front of each other.