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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be terrified about what will happen if the Gender Identity Bill is passed?

999 replies

TheWorldAccordingToToads · 08/03/2017 19:42

I'm a nervous wreck right now Sad

Will it replace sex as a protected characteristic? Does that mean that women will have no legal protection at all?

I'm scared Sad.

OP posts:
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6
Mumoftwoyoungkids · 09/03/2017 13:16

Genuine transwomen ? Who decides that then and how? Trans women who look acceptably 'feminine'? Trans women who wear a badge clearly stating that they are verified trans?

You see - this is the problem with this law. Up until now we have people who were born one sex but genuinely believe that they are another sex just quietly getting on with their lives and nobody cares or even notices.

I was quite happy with that.

And now we can't have that any more. Either I have to go with Iris's view and welcome a convicted sexual predator into the women's changing rooms on the grounds that as of half an hour ago he decided he felt like a woman.

Or I have to go with Datum's view and no longer recognise that some people do have a medical condition which makes it hard for the. To conform with social norms.

I can no longer "live and let live" because it is no longer safe for me to do so.

amispartacus · 09/03/2017 13:17

I seriously wonder how, if transwomen are only such a tiny percentage of the male population as is often claimed, how the fuck there are any left with such high rates of murder AND suicide

My trans friend killed herself. That's 1 less. I was very close last year. Glad you are concerned though.

GahBuggerit · 09/03/2017 13:20

I suppose us actual women should take something out of this - we have very clearly won the battle of the sexes in one respect as so many Men think its ace to be a woman.

I try to keep that thought in my head.

But I do look forward to the day when I, a biological female, am discriminated against because I'm forced to share a space with a biological male. If they can cry about unfairness I can too, but louder, because as a biological woman I am used to having to shout to be heard.

Bring it on.

DianaMemorialJam · 09/03/2017 13:23

Thanks Middle.

Women with penises are being heard over women with vaginas, and that makes me sad.

CharlottaBronte · 09/03/2017 13:23

amispartacus. You know many women have contemplated suicide in their lives right? You know many of us have experienced rape and sexual assault, right? I think any of us would try to protect you from experiencing assault or abuse. Can you not see, why we are afraid? How this bill can leave us even more vulnerable?

fairweathercyclist · 09/03/2017 13:23

Butch lesbians are probably murdered at higher rates by violent males than gender-conforming women, too

There was an article in Stylist magazine yesterday by a lesbian who said she got fed up with the abuse she got when she had a crewcut so she grew her hair out to look more feminine. But now she gets told she looks too straight to go into gay clubs. She didn't appear to wonder why it was ok for a gay club to display such stupid discrimination of its own though. Why does it matter what your hair is like?

Terfinator · 09/03/2017 13:25

If this bill passses, why don't we all just become men and give the government an administrative nightmare?

MercyMyJewels · 09/03/2017 13:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GahBuggerit · 09/03/2017 13:26

Terf - personally I cant wait to go to my local barbers for a haircut, so much cheaper and even easier now I wont even have to bother pretending to be a dude, I can just say I am!

amispartacus · 09/03/2017 13:28

Can you not see, why we are afraid? How this bill can leave us even more vulnerable

I DON'T AGREE WITH THIS BILL.

CharlottaBronte · 09/03/2017 13:29

But this is what the thread is about - opposing the bill. Confused

VestalVirgin · 09/03/2017 13:29

Why does it matter what your hair is like?

Historically, because someone not looking properly lesbian enough might be a police spy.
Not saying it is okay to still do this today, but homosexuals are an oppressed group who have a right to not want straight people in their spaces and stereotypes are the only way to tell someone's sexual orientation.

VestalVirgin · 09/03/2017 13:31

If this bill passses, why don't we all just become men and give the government an administrative nightmare?

Because I do not expect the exception for hereditary titles will be removed, and you really, really, really do not want to go to men's prison.

Oh, wait. All the predators there will have themselves be moved to the women's prison.

You are right. Identify as men and see how the government copes with it.

fairweathercyclist · 09/03/2017 13:32

Should seeing a penis be that awful, it's just the human body

Not sure I want to see dangling or saggy breasts either. Call me a prude - I usually go into a cubicle to get changed. But the essential difference is that breasts don't get used as weapons and penises do not belong in a female changing room or loo.

slug · 09/03/2017 13:38

If I identify a s a man after the bill, does that give me 20% more pay?????

If so, I approve.

Skooba · 09/03/2017 13:39

If this bill passses, why don't we all just become men and give the government an administrative nightmare?

Hmm, I could - I'm retired so no issues with work or work colleagues.

Seems feasible.

MaryTheCanary · 09/03/2017 13:52

At the risk of repeating stuff already stated on a few other threads (apologies to those who have read this before):

There are two types of transwomen and they are basically two completely different kinds of people, and do not overlap at all.

One group is the "androphilic" (attracted to men) transwomen--the ones who come from the same group as gay men. The best way to think of these is as ultra-femme gay guys who have made the decision to live as women, with almost all living full time as a woman by the age of 20. These boys were very feminine-presenting in habits and interests from early childhood. The decision to live as a TW rather than a gay man is complex, but ability to "pass" appears to be one factor, as is background/culture/ethnicity. If you live in a cultural milieu where men are bullied for being gay or not being macho, it is hard to carve out a niche for yourself as a gay man, so you are more likely to choose to live as a woman. That's why androphilic transwomen in the US are disproportionately likely to be black or hispanic. Many leave home/drop out of school and end up homeless or in insecure situations, selling sex or engaging in petty crime in order to survive. Others form relationships with violent men who abuse them, kick them about, sometimes kill them. These TW are genuinely vulnerable people.

The other groupand in the UK, US etc. they make up around 2/3 of all TWare the gynephilic transwomen. They are pretty much exclusively into women. They have no consistent history of presenting as feminine or preferring female friends, but do have a history of auto-erotic cross-dressing in most cases. This is a phenomenon (sometimes called autogynephilia) in which a heterosexual man "projects" his desire for the female form onto his own body--so he will put female clothing or undies on, look at himself, masturbate and fantasize. It's odd, but commoner than you'd imagine. Most cross-dressers never go beyond dressing, but a minority decide to actually live as women full time. Gynephilic (or AGP) transwomen are a Western phenomenon, tend to come more often from highly educated backgrounds, very often have careers in STEM, tech, engineering, and are usually white.

The first group of TW are indeed at high risk of being murdered--they are living in an insecure way and are selling sex to often violent men and often in violent relationships with violent men too.

The second group? No, quite honestly. They are not living on the streets since these TWs invariably establish settled careers and reputations BEFORE they transition, and tend to be better-off-than-average people. They are not selling sex to men. They are also not in relationships with men.

Thing is, though, most of the angry transactivitsts you'll see ranting on Twitter about how they are going to be literally murdered by TERFs etc. are from the second group, not the first group! Most transactivism is from gynephilic transwomen, in part because their transition is so public and they don't "pass" well, so they have no choice other than to make a big thing about being trans. Most of the first group, the androphilic transwomen, pass pretty well and mostly just keep their heads down.

MaryTheCanary · 09/03/2017 13:52

(The above is in reference to the discussion about murder/violence risks for TW, by the way)

Iggi999 · 09/03/2017 13:54

If this bill passses, why don't we all just become men and give the government an administrative nightmare?
This sounds like a plan. Certainly the best protest I've heard of so far!

Scissorcisters · 09/03/2017 13:58

This debate is very personal to me. I have been a victim of bigger stronger more violent humans in the past. Once when on the way home from a night out one decided they wanted to have sex with me. I was grabbed, sexually assaulted and strangled. All that mattered to me at the time was I could not breathe or get away because they were bigger and stronger than me. Their strength and power was very apparent, although I was fighting as hard as I could. I actually could not believe how strong they were compared to me, it felt super human. I cared not at that point how they were dressed. I did care that they had a penis though, as it was clear they were trying to use it as a weapon against me.

Luckily for me the attack was interrupted before they could rape and perhaps even kill me. If you haven’t been choked before you have no idea of the fear of death and sense of panic, you feel. I was young, only 18. To add to my distress the police didn’t really take it very seriously or make a serious attempt to find the perpetrator who ran off when interrupted. I got the impression they thought I shouldn’t have been out at that time of night by myself, and besides he hadn’t actually raped me, I was still a virgin, so no harm done! Unbelievably, they didn’t even refer me to victim support. However, I learned my lesson that night and It’s not a mistake I’ve made again, I know now the streets belong to men.

Listening to Iris selling women down the river with her clever words and misguided liberal claptrap makes me very angry. Trans women are not more vulnerable than me, they do not matter more than me. I have been a victim of male violence I understand how much stronger XY’s are and the very real risk they pose to me. From what I have read anyway its black trans sex workers who are at most risk, exactly like black female sex workers are. It’s more likely the colour of their skin and their choice of career not gender identity that increases risk.

What cannot be disputed is that women are the smaller weaker, less violent humans and we need protection from the bigger stronger more violent humans sometimes. They are called men and Trans women. That’s really all we need to know and how you feel about this issue should be based on that alone.

Please write to your MP and object against this bill. I don’t want any women to be at extra risk because of PC bullshit. Women matter, and so does our right to safe places.

I will also fight for trans rights with them for their own safe spaces as all humans should feel respected and safe.

DianaMemorialJam · 09/03/2017 14:06

Amazing post Scissor FlowersStar

EnormousTiger · 09/03/2017 14:07

People seem to use a lot of changing rooms and public loos all the time. That seems so different from my life.

WankingMonkey · 09/03/2017 14:09

Transsexual people should be very against this. Given they want to use the womens to avoid males, and this bill opens up the womens to the very males the transwomen are trying to avoid.

Thats totally ignoring the 'making sex offenses easier' stuff too.

VestalVirgin · 09/03/2017 14:12

People seem to use a lot of changing rooms and public loos all the time. That seems so different from my life.

Nice for you. I don't understand why males use public loos so often that they need access to women's public loos, either.

Women have menstruations and have to pull their trousers down to pee, but males can just pee against the next wall, really no idea why they need access not only to the loos they already have but to women's too.

Perhaps you can ask the people in favour of that idiotic legislation why males so urgently need access to women's spaces when no one ever uses those anyway.

Datun · 09/03/2017 14:12

Scissorcisters
Flowers

Mary has described it completely actually. You can split transwomen into two distinct groups.

This is the reason why people who know transwomen from the first group (attracted to men), simply don't understand. Because they are not a real threat. They are also in the minority, which is why up until now it hasn't been a problem.

Because transactivists have hijacked the LGB goodwill (such as it is) and because LGB issues are seen as progressive and correctly inclusive, they think the same applies to trans. They are completely different.

The transwomen who retain their genitalia and are attracted to women, are the ones who are pushing the agenda. They want access to women because of a fetish. The very demand should produce a negative response.

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