Calling all Spartacus! Jenni needs us!

[iloveruby]

Am shamelessly posting in AIBU for traffic.

On Sunday Jenni Murray from woman's hour wrote an article saying that transwomen aren't women.

Full article here: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-females-can-never-be-real-women-says-jenni-murray-ht0xhcvrs

In light of the inevitable backlash that Jenni will / is receiving there are a number of efforts to show our support for her.

One of which is co-signing a letter to the BBC. The letter is below and anyone who would like to add their support please message me with your name and you will be added.

"There will undoubtedly be calls for Jenni Murray to leave her position with the BBC following her article of 5th March in the Sunday Times about trans women.
Whether her comments were ‘hurtful’ as Stonewall claim is irrelevant. Murray was bravely sharing her experience as a woman, a feminist and a broadcaster who has navigated a male-dominated society to enjoy a successful career.
Of course trans women have their own hurdles, but those who have spent their formative years as men will not understand the impact of the casual and institutional sexism that women are born into. That some trans women feel justified in wanting to silence Murray speaks volumes about the reality of the different ways men and women are taught and expected to behave.
It is perhaps noteworthy that Murray has made these remarks at the age of 66 with a robust and respected career to bolster her. How many others share her thoughts but are prevented from speaking out for fear of causing offence and sparking a hostile reaction?
To date the BBC has been remiss in its duty to 'educate, inform and entertain’ regarding the ideology behind gender identity. It seems the lobbying activities of groups such as Stonewall and Transmedia Watch have stymied debate, and vilified those who do not share the same viewpoint.
We stand in support of Jenni Murray, and in support of free speech. Please do not cave into the demands to end Murray’s career. The BBC has few older women in positions of seniority, and it would be to the detriment of both audiences and the reputation of the BBC if you were to remove her from post.
Yours"

I am not the author of the letter - that is an amazing women on facebook called Maggie who has organised this.

If anyone would like to add their name directly via facebook let me know and I will send you the link.

I am Spartacus! I am Jenni!

....or maybe I'm a genderqueer butch lesbian (I do like comfortable shoes). Is that a thing?

Only if you wear the shoes for fashion rather than comfort. If you wear them for comfort or health reasons, but you identify as a person who wears 6 inch high pink, glittery stilettos, then you're not a genderqueer butch lesbian.

Hth

Rakey I think I get what you're trying to say but your mixed and misunderstood use of basic terminology makes your point pointless. Biologic sex IS NOT "gender". Human genetics is SCIENCE not feelz. It isn't wibbly wobbly, it doesnt doesn't change if you live in Australia or Peru or Mozambique. Human genetics (and the human bit matters because we're not fish or tree frogs or any other possible animal exception to the rules) is quite simply XY male with the potential to impregnate and XX female with the potential to gestate (we'll leave intersex genetic conditions to one side because they are a malfunction of human genetics and not in any way relevant to trans issues). You need to understand basic facts before you try and manipulate them into made up bullshit!

She's a bigot. Deserves to have the book thrown at her.

My reality of being a woman is more important to me than a man's desire to pretend he's one. Again, get yourself some facts before you start lobbing veiled accusations of "actual violence" and forced suicide. I suspect we all know which statistic you'll come back with but before you do do your own reading into the background of these statistics. Murder rates among sex workers and suicide in people with additional mh issues is not a trans specific issue.

There are more biological types than XX and XY. That is science not feelz

She's a bigot. Deserves to have the book thrown at her.

Would that be a manual, by any chance?

Are you really using a "not all....." argument? That is patriarchy in action

Also Rakey here's the Wiki definition of Patriarchy.

Patriarchy is a social system in which males hold primary power and predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property. In the domain of the family, fathers or father-figures hold authority over women and children. Some patriarchal societies are also patrilineal, meaning that property and title are inherited by the male lineage. Historically, patriarchy has manifested itself in the social, legal, political, religious and economic organization of a range of different cultures.[1] Even if not explicitly defined to be by their own constitutions and laws, most contemporary societies are, in practice, patriarchal.[2]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy

Trans women telling women what they should and shouldn't do is patriarchy in essence.

But the overwhelming majority of transwomen simply possess XY chromosomes. It's not an issue of people with chromosomal abnormalities. And they are abnormalities which are horrendously difficult for those that suffer from them. I think hijacking the awful trauma women with Turner Syndrome go through to justify completely unrelated trans issues is fucking offensive.

www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

rakey do you think women's lives are less important than transwomen's lives? Because that's the bit I'm struggling with - the bit where the 50% of the population than already gets less than their share gets to give up even more of their rights and protection and voice to make life better for the few (biological males) who express as trans.

FWIW I think trans people deserve protection from discrimination in the workplace and in society. But in their own right, not at the expense of women's rights.

National Geographic have some excellent articles on gender.

National Geographic actually forgot to include 'woman' on their cover illustrating umptydiddly aspects of gender.

Trans people's lives are in danger the more we perpetuate hurtful ideas.

No one is perpetuating hurtful ideas. Please point out where this has been said. It hurts to have children and it can also kill you. That's a biological fact that women live with. It needs to be said, and needs to be recognised. It hurts to realise your biology. Trust me on this, I'm a woman.

More women are killed by men than trans. either kill themselves or are killed by men. That's a statistical fact. More women commit suicide than trans.

What I also don't understand is that when it comes to criminal activity, if a person is trans (usually male to female), then that is counted as female. However, when it comes to violence against trans it is counted as trans (as in suicide or murders). You can't have it both ways.

It's men trying to dominate women all over again and succeeding. Pretty soon we won't be able to discuss periods, pregnancy or menopause because someone who identifies as a woman will feel hurt and left out.

Ffs men just fuck off. Be trans by all means but start your own gender don't try and trample all over ours.

is your ideas about what constitutes a woman more important to you than a trans woman's life?

The law seems, actually, to regard women's safety as rather less valuable than a trans woman's right to be called female : this is a violent rapist who is carefully described as female throughout, presumably in case 'she' gets wind of the misgendering and tops herself.

However. Thinking of the case you suggested, in which my teenage son might declare himself female: in our experience, he would be lauded at school as a bloody hero and any of the girls who dared murmur about him now being in the girls' changing room would be told to get over themselves.

I am not taking this lightly. He did actually announce that he thought he was a girl, during a confused and desperately unhappy phase at the age of 11 or 12. I worry very much that a similar child making a similar announcement even these few years later would be swept along the reassignment path because no one would be 'phobic' enough to apply the brakes.

Rakeytrakey, Intersex people have politely requested that they are not dragged in to arguments about trans.

Oh and pack it in with the shroud-waving emotional blackmail too. One of the things I find truly revolting about this whole sorry mess is transactivists brandishing dodgy suicide stats while at the same time campaigning against children being given proper in-depth counselling before embarking on a pathway of harmful lifelong drugs and surgery.

Transgender rapist? What fresh hell is this? Born under the name of a male name? This was actually on Crimewatch last night? WTF? I'm speechless. If anything is going to promulgate hatred towards trans it is this.

I haven't brought intersectional up. It's mentioned in the article I posted along with lots of other information about how biological sex happens in embryonic development, that most people on here have chosen not to read or take into account. It's real, it's science.

It's a matter of simple courtesy to use a given person's chosen name and pronouns even if you have concerns about transactivism more generally. It's a matter of simple humanity to support a given person's struggle to understand him-/herself and strive to be content, even if you have concerns about the social environment within which that struggle is structured.

There are plenty of biological causes of non-binary biological sex - although eg intersex is a rare condition it still affects hundreds of thousands across an entire population so that's an awful lot of individual human beings for whom a reductionist "xx=vulva=woman" position is exclusive and unhelpful.

I think Rakey has the idea that any questioning of trans issues must necessarily be transphobic. I think that's inaccurate and problematic. That's a bit like saying the NHS is an important institution and therefore all of its processes or employees are beyond reproach - it stifles debate and throws the most vulnerable on all sides under the bus.

I also think you've missed the point of intersectional feminism, within which one recognises that different groups of women (women of colour, women with disabilities, transwomen) have some common experiences by virtue of being women, but some different experiences by virtue of their other status. A woman in a wheelchair has more in common with a woman without mobility issues when they're both trying to get an abortion, and more in common with a man in a wheelchair when they're both trying to get PIP.

Fucking hell

Ask yourself a question: is your ideas about what constitutes a woman more important to you than a trans woman's life?

Ask yourself a question, Rakey: is your mistaken belief that women aren't under threat, all the time, every day, including from people with male bodies who identify as women, more important to you than, say, the two women who get murdered in the UK every week by men?

That was regarding the transgender rapist not the above posts