Disabled should work for less than minimum wage

[ElvishArchdruid]

Watching BBC24 and astounded at a woman who has come on to endorse that disabled folk should be paid less than normal (whatever that is) folk.

It's done her daughter the world of good and she thinks it fair as her daughter works at a slower pace with Downs Syndrome. I feel like they're casting a rather big net for a single group that may work slower. But the insinuation that I should be paid less than minimum wage is pretty outrageous. I'm sure there's lots like me who are mentally very capable, but have a body that doesn't co-operate.

A charity has endorsed this position too.

It has left me fuming, the woman by appearances can take the hit of her daughter getting paid less than minimum wage, let alone a living wage, subsidising her daughter possibly.

There is anger whilst I type this, but I can't see myself ever accepting such a suggestion.

I wasnt addressing you Blanche.

I was making a general point

On this thread dont think your posts were horrible...i just feel theres a general tendency to think this is OK for low functioning people and not others.

I dont think everyone who disagrees with me is horrible..

I think some are, which is fair enough.

I perfectly applaud the provision of supported working

I just dont think there should be an underpaid underclass discriminated against. Its simple.

In Tory Britain this might be a hard to achieve objective.

But i feel strongly about it.

How is working for less than the nmw earning a living
You ould be hard pressed to live on 5 a day.
As has been mentioned on thread.

I used to go to a cafe is South London (years ago) Half of the staff had LD and would come to the table with a carer to take your order. All had ongoing 121 support to do their job. I don't know what anybody was paid there. Prices for food/drink were similar to other local places, it was a fair bit bigger as well with more space between the tables. I don't know how the cafe was funded but can't imagine it operated as a commercial business. For a start they had to employ twice as many staff, one to do the job and one to look after and help the person doing the job, it was also a lot more spacious so not maximising floor space.

If all staff 'working' there are are paid at least NMW then extra funding to subsidise the business would need to come from somewhere. I don't know where this money would come from? Local authority?

I'm not arguing that we should have a get out of NMW, for businesses btw, because I think it would be too open to abuse. But anyway, where does the money come from for places like the cafe above to should they just not exist?

Sorry, I really didn't phrase that well, I did mean various posters, that was lazy of me. Sorry.

But Its simple struck me!

I don't think it is. If it were then there would be jobs for everyone. It may be simple as a moral code, but the financial realities make it far less than simple.

To me it is simple because its a moral.line we should not cross.

Even if there is a job shortage we shouldn't throw a section of society under the bus.

To me it is simple because its a moral.line we should not cross. But that is a very naïve viewpoint.. how does that work in real life?

Even if there is a job shortage we shouldn't throw a section of society under the bus But... that doesn't work either! Many cohorts get run over during financial downturns... that's what drove the changes in benefits, employment laws over the last god knows how many years!

I'm not arguing that we should have a get out of NMW, for businesses btw, because I think it would be too open to abuse.

I should add to this that I don't think the people with LD were being exploited in this cafe if they weren't being paid NMW.

Many cohorts get run over during financial downturns

And i think its wrong.

You are actually advocating choosing who to run over?

Fake i understand where you are coming from, in so much as it would be commercially impossible to pay the going rate to everybody in a cafe of that type !

However, imagine the scenario where a company who by current law are 'obliged' to make reasonable adjustments for disabled employees start using the 'reasonable' adjustments as a cause to reduce someones pay !

That is really clutching at straws.

Its OK to screw one group over but not another?

You are actually advocating choosing who to run over? What?

Let me see: respond and be equally offensive or got and have tea?

Tea...

I think the only way something like this could have a possibility of working would be something akin to the German model someone described upthread where there is some form of non mandatory external assessment and with the work itself also being non mandatory - maybe with any income earned being independent of benefits.

It couldn't be something which employers would chose to refer for or enact on their own or it would be abused; it would need to be something where they chose to create a specific supported position which could only be given to those who had been assessed.

I'm on both sides of the fence here because I see the risks to disabled people who are already in the workplace and need to maintain the protections that they have, but on the flipside I can also see that working can be hugely beneficial for people BUT that employing someone who is consistently less productive is often not financial for employers. I run a small company with my husband, and we couldn't afford to take on someone who couldn't do the full job but still pay them the same. Obviously that's not the case for huge companies so maybe something linked to company size could also be considered?

Well..am glad you werent. Enjoy your tea.

" (we seem to forget these days that working is a positive thing for reasons beyond money)"

Yes im sure landlords and councils will also remember this instead of expecting their rent and council tax

I know what we could do.
We could insist that non LD people should spend a year, on reduced pay, working as a one to one to support those with LD and ensure they didn't have to take reduced pay.
I am sure no one would mind being told they had to work in a cafe for a reduced salary for a year.
Nothing wrong with working in catering and surely everyone would be willing to take a financial hit for a few months to avoid others having to spend their entire working life putting up with less than NMW.

What would you have the people with LD who cannot work in the conventional sense do for work MrsDV?

I did supporting working about 8 years ago i replaced a supported worker who had replaced a ...our local council ran the scheme they paid me £30 a week over my disability benefit for 6 months then i was told I hadn't worked out they were very sorry up until then i was managing fine. Supported working is a terrible concept and open to explotation.

I only found out about the other supported disabled workers when I met a woman i had worked with in town she said Jay they had no intention of employing anybody.

"What would you have the people with LD who cannot work in the conventional sense do for work "

What do you mean by "for work"?

Do you mean, to pay the bills?

Or do you mean, for entertainment and stimulation?

Because if the latter, PLEASE will you stop calling it "work", or "a job" or "employment".

It considerably muddies the water to use the same language as we have to use for people who have actual advertised jobs, who compete in the real labour market, who have real bills to pay, and who will be sacked if they fail to do their work adequately or have to take time off for illness.

By all means call it "therapeutic activity", or "meaningful activity". And everyone needs that in their lives - including SAHP who don't hold down paid employment.

But it confuses the discussion considerably if people call this meaningful activity "a job".

A pp actually admitted above that the "job" she's so in favour of, isn't - it's an invention to give the disabled person she knows somewhere to go and be busy and socialise. And if they're not there, the real employees will do the actual work.

It's great that that disabled person HAS somewhere to go socialise and do stuff, now their day centre has closed.

But cut NMW for bill-paying disabled to enable this? Erm, no.