Disabled should work for less than minimum wage

[ElvishArchdruid]

Watching BBC24 and astounded at a woman who has come on to endorse that disabled folk should be paid less than normal (whatever that is) folk.

It's done her daughter the world of good and she thinks it fair as her daughter works at a slower pace with Downs Syndrome. I feel like they're casting a rather big net for a single group that may work slower. But the insinuation that I should be paid less than minimum wage is pretty outrageous. I'm sure there's lots like me who are mentally very capable, but have a body that doesn't co-operate.

A charity has endorsed this position too.

It has left me fuming, the woman by appearances can take the hit of her daughter getting paid less than minimum wage, let alone a living wage, subsidising her daughter possibly.

There is anger whilst I type this, but I can't see myself ever accepting such a suggestion.

Our nephew has autism and has a part time "supported" job in a warehouse. He loves his little job but without the support then he'd be unemployable, so I'm torn.

That sounds fantastic Blanche!

But for your average employer it would be different.

Not all disabled people are incapable of working at reasonable pace- by creating this rule people who are highly skilled but disabled can and will be taken advantage of. All people capable of working should be paid the appropriate wage and at least minimum wage for their time. We cannot and should not return to a time where disabled people are considered second class citizens (ideally we should be improving not regressing)

And where does it stop? When employers employ more disabled people on less than nmw and then disabled people will be accused of taking all the jobs just like Eastern Europeans are accused now. You can't bloody win.

This idea disgusts me.

'Is it any difference to access to work where employers are subsidised to employ people they wouldn't otherwise employ?'

Access to Work is not a subsidy. It's a government scheme to help cover the cost of reasonable adjustments in the work place, such as equipment. It has nothing to do with subsidising salaries.

www.gov.uk/access-to-work/overview

Ridiculous idea, it would be open to abuse and exploitation of an already vulnerable part of society. The alternative is to refuse to 'exploit' the situation and to leave many adults with SEN/disabilities unable to enter any workplace, become more and more isolated, depressed etc.

There has to be some middle ground and subsidised workplaces might be it!

This woman is very wealthy of course.
Which helps.
In the sense it dulls all concept of rational thought.

The problem arises when it goes from if some disabled people would like to work and are willing to do so for less than the minimum wage with the back up of other benefits, then they should be able to/allowed to, to "you're disabled and I'm going to pay you less to do the same job as someone else and there's nothing you can do about it."

When the people we're talking about have slower or less mental capability, then there are ways of creating jobs and volunteering that can be great for them and their wider community outside of business that see employees as some sort of clog in the machine. Friends visited a cafe recently that was specifically run by people with downs syndrome and had a lovely experience, and of course that sort of business venture does well in normalising something that should be perfectly normal already, but mostly isn't.

When you move on, however, to people who are physically disabled with full mental capacity - question, how many "able bodied" employees have full mental capacity and what actually is full mental capacity? - then anything less than a full wage and companies now discriminating against them on the grounds of disability is a disgusting notion, that would almost certainly become easier with nonsense like the suggestion "Oh pay them less so they can have a lovely little job."

If we lived in a fully egalitarian society where people of all capabilities were treated with respect, then things like this would not be a huge issue, but we don't live in that society and ill thought out precedents can lead to huge problems. Ultimately if a company doesn't want to employ a person with disabilities on a full wage,then that's their decision - mostly, unless if can be proven that they are discriminating, but they don't get to employ that person on less than minimum wage because they're not as fast as all the other cogs.

You are going down a very 'dangerous' pathway here. Imagine a 'brilliant' IQ of 150 person with Autism !

This type of thinking could give a justification for an employer to say , well your using the 'disability' Act to make us make adequate adjustments for your condition . Therefore you should only be paid a DERISORY or percentage of what a person that we don't have to make considerations for.

This is very 'stupid' thinking from probably a very 'wealthy' women who thinks that isn't it 'Brilliant' that her daughter is getting out !

However, for people with disabilities who face huge obstacles in getting in to work, even though they might be '10' times better this is another hurdle put in the way for 'ignorant' employers or people to exploit.

There are quite a few places like that round here Worra

There's a garden centre too. They have free range chickens and a 'petting zoo'. They send their SEN apprentices to the college I used to work at to complete a Level 1 or 2 BTEC in small animal care or plant growing.

I suspect there is a lot of similar work being done in most places. We just don't always know they exist!

Revolting. So what if someone works a bit more slowly as a result of disability? I work with people who get things done more quickly and more slowly than I do, because they are better/worse at the job, or more or less hardworking than I am. No-one determined my salary with a stopwatch.

Why is there the assumption that people with learning/physical disabilities will work slower anyway? I've not seen that to be true. Maybe require a little more training and support but so do others. May as well suggest that everyone is paid based on performance

May as well suggest that everyone is paid based on performance Erm...!!??

Many jobs are!!

'Twas me who said normal folk, I can't recall the exact term used. That's why I said normal (whatever normal is) folk.

If you saw it on BBCNews24 the tag line was disabled to be paid less than minimum wage, or there abouts.

There's lots to be said for letting disabled professionals work from home, as long as they get the work done. I can't think being in an office is absolutely necessary, as from my experience more time is lost from gossiping.

There's been jobs at DH's work and I've begged to speak to a boss, get my CV across and explain I'm worth my weight in gold but can't do set office hours, even flexible office hours, as I don't know how I will feel until the day. My disability is 24/7, not just during waking hours, sleep is a luxury as pain even on the strongest meds is bearable at best.

I saw her and she is a patronising twat she would be as well as saying there there we are giving them something worthy to do, sadly she isn't the only person who thinks like this

I think those describing this as an abhorrent idea and file view need to calm down a bit.

I think some of this idea came from a garden centre owner. One of him employees asked if he could bring his brother, with downs, to work with him, boss said yes. The employees brother came to work most days, followed his brother around, slowing him down, but nobody minded. He'd 'help' his brother with little jobs and the boss said he'd like to pay the disabled brother something, just a small amount, and they looked into it but found that he would have to be paid mw. This wasn't possible, not only was he not a productive employee, he slowed down the other employees. The disabled brother was popular with staff and customers though. Shame he couldn't be given a little bit of money for going to 'work'.

Personally I don't think we should have a lower mw for disabled people like this person's brother, but only because it's too open to abuse. I certainly don't think the boss in this story was 'vile' quite the opposite in fact, although I see some posters would think him file.

No way.

I am bloody sick of people suggesting my son should work in a garden centre or in a cafe. This is part of the same bollocks.

If you are disabled there is work you are allowed to do. Something society has decided that fits.

Now you are supposed to do that work for less than NMW? NO.

Who decides what disabled person deserves a normal wage and which ones don't? What disabilities would be catagorised and not worthy of real wages?

Down Syndrome? Some people with DS have SLD and some have Moderate or Mild LDs. People with Cerebral Palsy have a wide range of abilities and restrictions.
Which disability makes everyone behave the same and have the same abilities?

Are we going to make people take an IQ test to decide how much they get paid?

My DS is a talented musician who happens to have ASD and LDs. That doesn't mean his version of Back in Black is inferior to someone's without his diagnoses.. Why should he get paid less for playing it?
Just another way of saying people with disabilities are worth less...worthless.

There is a cafe here called Downies and Brownies, (that is the name and it was chosen by the staff, before anyone gets upset) it is run, and staffed by people with many different disabilities, there is a manager, and everyone gets paid a good living wage, the food is excellent, there is a nice vibe about the place and it is very centrally located which means it is often used by office staff, so it's busy. The people who work there would struggle to find other work in this country.
In one of the major cities in the UK there was a similar cafe which was great, but the local council, in their usual lack of wisdom, closed it down due to the austerity cuts. What happened to the staff I don't know, but I believe everyone deserves a decent living wage whoever they are!

So the brother was entertainment for others a nice lad to have around so he deserved a little something for working so like a child getting pocket money

I see the point she's trying to make, but this is the wrong way to go about it.

How would it be policed? There's people registered disabled at work who are much better than me. One of my adult DN's with LDs would struggle with some jobs but is very good at her job in a sandwich shop. Where do we draw the line, giving the variance in ability between non-disabled (apologies if incorrect terminology) individuals?

My dn works harder and quicker than some of her colleagues who see it as a stop gap job before uni etc. Why should she be told she is effectively worth less as an employee because she has learning difficulties?

I've had very lazy people work for me in the past. Should I have paid them less as well?

I was a volunteer for the Paralympics in 2012, so know only too well what disabled people are capable of! Quite awe inspiring, and lovely people too.

Personally i think there is a difference between learning disabilities and physical disabilities in this instance. Surely giving someone a purpose and the social aspects of a job is better than the alternative of being stuck at home. My sister has downs and we pay for her to go to an adult school/centre one of the things the young adults with learning disabilities do there is serve in a cafe. I think it is great. She has learnt so much and is becoming more independent and self confident. She will never have a 'proper job' but she loves meeting people. I think this is a great idea like a paid volunteer scheme. However i do agree with pp it should be controlled and the person with guardianship of the person with learning disabilities would need to be involved.
One of the biggest issues with young adults with learning disabilities is that once they finish school it is hard for them to have places to go, the more they are isolated they lose confidence and social skills. Funding is so stretched.
In an ideal world they would be paid as normal but it would not be economically viable. IMHO this is better than them being stuck at home or in under staffed and under resourced day centres. It would also mean the person looking after them may have more earning potential which would increase the families quality of life.
It should be a choice thing as not all learning disabilities are the same nor the people that have them.

Lets be honest too, this is about people with LDs rather than physical disabilities.
I doubt people would suggest that someone with a degree but who uses a wheelchair should be paid less than their colleagues in IT or Law.

But its ok because if you have LDs you shouldn't expect to get the same as others. Be grateful that you are allowed to work at all, that other people put up with you at all.

Last time this came up, we ended up describing it as "meaningful activity in a commercial environment", rather than "work".

Because as soon as you call it "work", you fall into the trap they have, of discussing disabled people working for less than NMW, or being withdrawn from the usual employment protections. Oh, and then having their benefits slashed because they've refused to accept "work" under these conditions.

It can be very beneficial for people to be doing meaningful activity. But let's not call it work unless it's an activity on terms similar to those of a non-disabled employee.

Well surely disabled people pay the same bills as able bodied? ( I'm leaving out DLA, etc because I presume that is for paying for the extra things they pay out for regarding their disabilities) so their cost of living is the same. As long as they can do the job (even if they need more time) then they should get the same wages as able bodied no?