To think most Dubai naysayers are hypocrites

[WhisperedLoudest]

Not at TAAT more a TAA lot of threads.

Repeatedly on MN people say they'd never go to Dubai because of Human Rights issues at the same time as announcing they'd much rather go to do yoga in India or sightseeing in Morocco.

It seems rather hypocritical and an attitude that is very particular to Dubai and I suspect something to do with being perceived as trashy not disagreeing there

So if you have objections to Dubai on moral grounds where do you go? Do you apply same strict standard to other countries.

I've often asked on those threads where people do go but never received much of a response.

no nice old villages to potter round by myself. No nice hills/ paths to wander on.

See it's so sad people think this. While the emirate of Dubai itself doesn't have much in the way of old villages, it does have lovely hills and paths (Qudra lakes). Just a short drive away and you're in Fujairah and Ras Al Khaimah where there are old villages to wander around. Some of them require a good bit of off-roading up mountains to get to. It's really a beautiful country with a very old culture and heritage, you just have to actually want to see it.

Dont tend to do holidays in the sun as cheap tourism is basically based on exploitation of local workers and the local environment. How much water alone is wasted in these places.

That said I have been to Paris a few times and New York once. Both have issues with underpaid immigrants in the hotel and tourism sector but I can find places to stay that recognise that.

Problem is with place like Dubai or China or other destinations is that its state policy to oppress people and that is where I draw the line.

I don't go anywhere with those kinds of issues, that's a huge swathe of countries - and now the US is off my list for other reason
if they treat women that badly I don't go. I include Malta.

If it means I don't leave the UK the rest of my life, that's life. I will miss America enormously but maybe I got it all wrong anyway.

everyone has different priorities but to me if there's not even a whisper of equal rights, I'm not going. It wouldn't appeal to me. I have no judgement of those who want to go, it's just not for me.

I do get annoyed when people say "if you were offered a free trip, you'd go " - no, I've been offered free trips and still said no. If I say something, I mean it.

Currently in Dubai on holiday, and laughing at the MN prejudice. Went to the tennis yesterday and the capacity crowd was completely multicultural and multiracial, and of all ages; it was cheerful, polite and happy; elderly people were helped to their seats and never jostled or treated impatiently. And although the holier than me faction on here may not believe it, beer and wine were on sale and being consumed by women and men of all races. As a PP writes above, there is injustice everywhere and the migrant labour in Dubai work hard and for long hours, but are doing so because 10 years here will fund the rest of their lives and enable them to provide a better future for their children when they return home. One should pity people so blinkered by their belief in Western values and culture that they refuse to travel and see first hand what the rest of the world is like.

I Wouldn't go to Dubai for all the reasons given... because of the oppression of women and minority religions.

BillSykesDog, what utter bollocks. Any religion is welcome in Dubai, they have churches and other places of worship. All religions are welcome.

Good post OCSockOrphanage.

Migrant workers can spend a few years working in Dubai then go home and buy a big house. I have worked all my adult life and will never be able to afford to get on the property ladder.

Who is most exploited? Migrant workers in Dubai, or people like me in the UK?

Are holidays not about beaches, shopping, good food and relaxation

Not everyone's. What about skiing? What about city breaks? What about walking holidays, art holidays, and yoga retreats? So, you like Dubai, and it ticks your boxes for a holiday - great!

Dubai doesn't appeal to me at all, and part of that is the perceived trashiness of it. There are so many places I would love to see, and will never get the chance to, so why would I bother with a place that I don't fancy, for whatever reason (even if others disagree with my reasons)?

In terms of equal rights. Dubai and the UAE is not Saudi. Women are allowed to work, drive, etc. There are more traditional families, don't get me wrong, but for the most part Emirati women are incredibly well educated and hold excellent jobs, especially in the sciences and technology fields. They have to wear abaya to work, but the men have to wear thobe to work, in terms of personal "dress" freedom both sexes are restricted.

There culture has strict rules about marriage, but again, that's pretty equal over both sexes.

Because of the small ethnic Emirati population there is actually a HUGE push by the government to have both sexes gainfully employed. More so than I've ever seen in the West.

Dubai is hated on here, but at the same time people love to suggest Oman for holidays. Yes the coastline there is fantastic and the country is a lot more natural, but the same migrant labourers built the hotels there, very similar laws apply. Also Jordan - yes there's incredible history there but also all modern hotels and buildings built on similar labour, and the same oppression of women.

So many people would also go to Bali as a luxurious exotic destination, but Indonesian is much higher risk of terrorism than the UAE (but people often don't link the extremists in Jakarta as being the same county), and the treatment of women in Malaysia is far worse than the UAE.

Maldives has a horrendous history regarding women's rights and flogging women.

The PP mentioning the black women harrassed for jaywalking - that's a very strict rule in dubai because of the horrific driving. It's easy enough to find out online that it's law here, and it's enforced. If you're caught doing it, it's to be expected. If you do it, you run risk of death due to the poor driving. I'm 100% certain that it wasn't to do with their gender, nationality or race that they were pulled for it.

Also not wanting to go to dubai due to the risk of being arrested for something minor - chewing gum in Singapore is illegal - would you go there?

In 9 years in the UAE I've known 6 friends/colleagues/acquaintances arrested. 3 for drink driving (one seriously hammered, two for morning after and still over the limit), one for punching a copper and one for financial fraud. The other was for murder he did it and is still inside. If it was such a risk of arrests for minor things, im pretty sure I'd know more people arrested in that time.

I also agree with thefatfitty - there have been such major steps forward over the last 10 years or so - labour laws are much more stringent and convictions are being made for companies who flout the laws. Retaining passports is illegal and has been for a while. Living conditions for staff must meet minimum standards and my company can terminate contracts with immediate effect for violating workers rights (and we do it, and insist on inspections and visits at any point from inspectors checking on this).

ryanstartedthefire please can you link to where dubai is on high terror alert? I believe it's lower than the UK, so would like to know if I'm wrong!

I bet all of us draw ethical lines with our purchases and choices and few of us will be 100% consistent because of lack of info/effort. I don't think that necessarily constitutes hypocrisy but perhaps it does.

Imperfect as it is, I still think it is better to strive to make ethical choices than throw your hands up and do nothing, - as long as you are not smug and judgemental about others who draw different lines.

I won't go to Dubai because of their treatment of migrant workers amongst other things, many of our friends have been. I've been to Istanbul, and there have long been concerns about human rights in Turkey, but I didn't draw my line there, perhaps incorrectly. I think the great wealth of Dubai makes many particularly judgemental about their treatment of of migrant workers, as does the racist aspect to it. It also pisses me off that their leaders claim to be devoted muslims and such treatment is not condoned by Islam which like Christianity, places great emphasis on fairness, justice, and providing for the needy.
I only buy animal food products that are sold with recognised animal welfare credentials, - but I don't apply the same ethics when buying leather products so I'm inconsistent, and i suppose it's because there are easily accessible welfare choices out there so we can conclude my ethics on this issue are fairly flabby.
Unless you are blessed with the wisdom of Solomon and a lot of free time for research, ethical choices entail risking hypocrisy. Unless it's glaring or intentionally dishonest, I think it's an unfortunate but tolerable corollory.

It's like Las Vegas but with apartheid and slavery.

It's the westerners who live there and embrace the whole westerners are superior to the Filipinos/Indian workforce that I find repelling . Having maids and other staff that they pay peanuts to, but they are of course helping these poor people by employing them they'll tell themselves.

Luckily I haven't met too many people like that. Most people I know pay their maids/nannies quite well and have friends from all nationalities.

I thought it was like Las Vegas too

I think LV is worth visiting if you are in the area as its almost too difficult to describe how gaudy and flashy it is

Not everyone who lives there is a misogynist racist Twat itsmine. I'm not saying there aren't a lot some, but come on.

www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11936981/Who-in-their-right-mind-would-want-to-visit-Dubai.html

I don't like Dubai because I think it's tacky but if I was to stop going to countries based on their human rights violations I would have to emigrate, change my job, never visit family and pretty much never go on holiday. I think that boycotting places because you don't agree with their government or aspects of their culture is not a good way to achieve change, the vast majority of people would have to do it for it to have any affect.

Ah things must have changed drastically then.

Or, like most people, you choose your friends and the groups of people you spend time with based on your own values.

I believe the articles written about how some workers are virtual slaves, over some comments on mums net. I could not enjoy myself knowing there are virtual slaves making this possible.

The thing is, if a group of MNers boycott Dubai as a holiday destination, it is not going to make one tiny bit of difference to the economy or workers conditions or women´s rights, etc. So by posting over and over again that they are not going to go, they aren´t actually making any sort of real contribution

This is a fallacy.

1. By contributing to their economy and success, you're basically giving your approval to "the man" and making it more likely for the whole experiment to be repeated. It's like buying a stolen car and justifying it by saying "the car's already been stolen now".

2. Beyond the possibility of people thinking that we are bragging on internet forums, we as individuals SHOULD have a sense of personal moral responsibility that guides our actions, whether those actions have a direct and tangible consequence or not. In other words, it's good to behave in a way that you deem morally righteous, whether it changes anything or not, isn't it?

only spent four hours there between planes. Can't see anything on the list of attractions that appeals - if I'm going to see historic places getting there by 'off-roading up mountains' is all kinds of wrong for me, as well as no fun.

so never visiting is not a hardship for me.

also spent an overnight in Vegas which was enough - see it, boggle, get the hell out. But shopping for me is a chore, not recreation, and places with such crap climates that you need aircon are also a chore.

Singapore - Chewing gum and dropping litter get you in big trouble. That's good, although some of the other things that happen are less good. But it has history you can walk to, greenery and wonderful food.

I realise that by my not going to Dubai, I am not going to change anything but I don't want to spend my hard earned salary in a country that was largely built on modern day slavery. It is a personal choice.
The other week there was a thread about how Tesco delivery driver had broken the oven door of a MNer by dropping a bottle of wine and that Tesco were refusing to cover the cost of it. Again, people who chose as a result of that awful treatment not to go to Tesco probably won't change anything but just don't wish to contribute to their profits.

Even if it does not change anything, I can not ENJOY myself knowing slaves made this possible.

But I haven't been to Morocco or India either OP.

The point with Dubai is that the oil,money is running out. The current regime has been able to resist change because it can prop,itself up with money. And political change/unrest tends to come at times of economic instability.

Luxe tourism is the regimes strategy for keeping the money flowing in when the oil money runs out. That's why they have invested in it so heavily (other strategies in the region include buying up prime real,estate in other countries e.g. London property market and buying football teams with huge brand value or potential e.g. PSG, Man City).

So, both declining and decrying the tourism offer of Dubai won't necessarily effect political change in itself, but it could impact on the regime's strategy to,avoid the likely pre-requisite conditions for political change.

It's a bit like refusing to play Sun City in South Africa under apartheid, it's so they can't built an alternate economic base to provide a bulwark against change.