Ok - another trans thead

[Bambambini]

This is more about logic and free speech than simply Trans issues. A catholic group paid to advertise their message on a bus that Girls have vulvas and boys have penises. Seems it was a reaction to a similar ad promoting that girls have penises and boys have vulvas. Aibu to be concerned that logic and free speech is under attack? Why was one claim allowed and another censored? This seems to be a sign of the times and I'm getting worried. Who is choosing which ideas, agendas are allowed and promoted?

I really must make those enquiries about a place at Eton for my imaginary trans boy child......

but no, miraculously, somehow, any time a male identifies as a new shiny sparklegender, he must be admitted into women's spaces.

Yes, it's funny that.

Seems like the poster has a creepy pedophilia edge, and still equates gender to physical parts. Just hairdos not genitals. What what makes a girl a girl isn't a vagina, it's long hair. Cutting a vagina-owners' hair makes them a boy. Really?!

Wtf is wrong with calling it a personality though?! Is it too boring and normal and ordinary? The way gender is used, it seems it's adherents ascribe a sort of ethereal, magical, soul-like quality to it 🦄

I think that's exactly it. Only boring cis people have personalities.

They have hijacked all these confused youths (who want to stand out) to further their cause.

So the umbrella now includes gender dysphoria, confused youths, still closeted homesexuals, autogynephiles, any gender nonconforming individual, any part time cross dresser/drag queen who fancies it, special snowflakes and convicted criminals who want an easy ride/access to women.

Oh, and anyone else who says so.

What it doesn't include is people with the brain of a female and the body of a male, because it doesn't exist.

Bev my points were:

1. If sex is determined by more than external sexual characteristics then clearly it's not just boys who have penises and girls who have vaginas. A 46 XX person will be a woman chromosomal with a penis.

1. Intersex may relate to transex as 46 XX and 46 XY intersex people are often mistaken for the sex suggested by their external sexual characteristics. A 46 XX may be brought up as a boy due to her penis but identify more as female.

1. Gonad intersex people may have both XX and XY chromosomes which suggests a clear third possibility beyond either 46 XX and 46 XY. They, and people with complex intersex disorders (XO or XXY etc) suggest that sex is much more complicated than a strict binary division. This is not an area that is well understood by any means so it is prudent to approach it with some humility.

Here is the link again
medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001669.htm

I've just noticed that, as usual, I'm wearing flat shoes (always flats, my back is buggered), trousers, no make up and the short hair style I've had for years.

Yep. It's definite. I'm a bloke. My kids will be surprised. Mind you, it'll make SRS sooo much cheaper. No more need for surgery. A hairdresser is all that's required.

This is not an area that is well understood by any means

It's incredibly well understood. Just not by you. Stop trying to derail.

Quoting Prawn of the patriarchy (good name by the way!) Intersex is such a time waster in these discussions that I suggest every time someone tries to derail a thread discussing trans issues by dragging in intersex we just point out that they're COINing and ignore them. Co-opting intersex is a diversionary tactic and works very well, but only if you allow yourself to be side tracked.

Booboostwo - I'm look at you as I quote this

Please read Datun's post at 12.01 today and stop trying to derail by COINing, BooBoo. Intersex has absolutely nothing to do with transgender and intersex people dislike being used in this way.

You're obviously very interested in intersex - no reason why you shouldn't be. However this is the second thread you've inserted it into. Why not start a thread if you want to discuss it?

Boo

Suggest you stop COINing and start your own thread to debate learn about intersex.

"They, and people with complex intersex disorders (XO or XXY etc) suggest that sex is much more complicated than a strict binary division. "

Do you not know meaning of the word "disorder"?

You seem to think that disorders are a category of normal. They are not.

Bev the medical definition of 46 XX is not someone with a large clitoris but someone with external organs with the appearance of a penis. As both the clitoris and the penis develop from the phallus developmentally there isn't such a huge difference between the two organs.

Why is this medical definition offensive? It's not an evaluative judgement of anyone. I am not saying that 46 XX intersex women are less of a woman or less of a person than regular variety women people. Why would the possession of both female and male genitalia or of ambiguous genitalia be offensive in itself. It's just biology and no different from someone who is born with extra or missing limbs. In itself it is not a value judgement, it is a physical description.

Do you know the difference between a valid argument, or at least a set of vaguely coherent thoughts, and screaming?

I am not confusing intersex people with transgender. I have said repeatedly that some intersex people may wish to go through sex reisignment as they have been misidentified at birth. Intersex societies say pretty much the same

www.isna.org/faq/transgender

These two groups are not the same, but some intersex people may also be transgender. I introduced the possibility of transex people and the complexity of identifying their sex in the discussion about the binary nature of sex, I never said that all intersex people are transgender or vice versa.

Anyone who feels offended by my posts should feel free to report them but go to the trouble of reading them first please. As for which threads I post to that is entirely up to me and the discretion of MN HQ.

Let's ignore efforts to derail, regardless of provocation.

Bev I do understand you but I politely decline your requests to tell me what I can and cannot say. May I repeat that if your think my posts contravene the T&Cs of the site you can report me, otherwise I don't see how you can tell me what I can and cannot post...on a thread you did not even start!

What is more offensive in my eyes is speaking of all intersex people as if they are one group that has opinion. I don't know which intersex community you are referring to, but above is a link to an American intersex community that discusses the subject - are they being offensive to themselves? Get in touch with them and tell them how offended you are by them on their behalf.

Here you go Bev in answer to your question an article specifying which types of intersex conditions are more likely to be associated with gender dysphoria.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23045263

The causes of body dysphoria are extremely poorly understood. Calling it a mental condition doesn't divorce it from possible endocrinological, chemical or structural issues (of the brain for example). Beliefs are not generated from ether and unless you are a Cartesian dualist the mind is not separate from the brain. So transgender is a poorly understood condition and unless we know what causes it we cannot make any definitive claims about its relation to other conditions.

Thus I have not made any definitive links between the two conditions other than these two simple ones:

• some intersex people have ambiguous genitalia which in some cases was misattributed at birth and those people are more likely to seek gender reassignment. As I mentioned in the other thread people with ambiguous genitalia have been subjected to horrific historical abuses by the medical profession, partly through naive identifications of clitorises/penises by length and partly through the false psychological claim that on can become male/female by being brought up male/female.

• some intersex people have sexual characteristics of both sexes giving rise to the possibility of a third sex - a category, by the way, recognized and protected by the UN High Commission on Human Rights.

Both of these ideas are relevant to this thread which asked about the categorisation of boys as having penises and girls as having vulvas.