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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Ok - another trans thead

425 replies

Bambambini · 01/03/2017 13:20

This is more about logic and free speech than simply Trans issues. A catholic group paid to advertise their message on a bus that Girls have vulvas and boys have penises. Seems it was a reaction to a similar ad promoting that girls have penises and boys have vulvas. Aibu to be concerned that logic and free speech is under attack? Why was one claim allowed and another censored? This seems to be a sign of the times and I'm getting worried. Who is choosing which ideas, agendas are allowed and promoted?

OP posts:
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BevGoldbergsSister · 02/03/2017 21:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

venusinscorpio · 02/03/2017 21:27

Bev Grin

WankingMonkey · 02/03/2017 21:40

These two groups are not the same, but some intersex people may also be transgender.

Of course some intersex people may be transgender also. This is kind of a moot point surely? Intersex in itself is nothing to do with transgender issues, however some intersex people may indeed be transgender.

SmileEachDay · 02/03/2017 21:40

So. I've been at work and shit.

Sounds like I just need a hair cut and a tractor and I can identify as a man. I'd like to identify as a man who identifies as a woman, please.

Then I guess I'd be a man with a vulva.
Or a woman.

Who knows.

BevGoldbergsSister · 02/03/2017 21:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 02/03/2017 21:50

As far as I'm concerned, the Catholic Church is in no position to dictate what is right and wrong, regardless of individual views on transgender people.

CocoaLeaves · 02/03/2017 21:58

stop as far as I understand it, the Catholic Church has created the bus as an advert or to advocate their point of view. Charities, organisations and businesses communicate their views in many ways. It is not dictating- quite the opposite, stating a viewpoint in public (or a biological fact for that matter) - it is how democracy works.

No-one has to agree, but they should be able to present their argument.

ageingrunner · 02/03/2017 22:14

Even the Catholic Church is right twice a day 🤷‍♀️

BLM2017 · 02/03/2017 22:19

A boy having a penis and a girl having a Valva is a biological fact, do I have no problem with this being on a poster. However I don't like it trust the source as an organisation generally

FishInAWetSuitAndFlippers · 02/03/2017 22:34

Any surgery to make the child appear more female then would not be sex reassigment but confirmation, surely?

That's what sex reassignment surgery is being called more and more now. I believe (although I haven't seen for myself) that this is some sort of new guideline that's starting to be farmed out to various places.

The belief is that the surgery on transgender people is confirming their gender. Not reassigning their sex.

(I know you were talking about people with chromosome differences but it reminded me about this new wording ).

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 02/03/2017 22:44

The poster is as creepy as fuck. The rich transwomen who lead the movement are desperate to distract us from their sexual motivation. Because nothing says purity than an adorable trans tot.

joystir59 · 02/03/2017 22:45

'Gender' should be replaced by sex on forms and when discussing surgery which is designed to help someone 'pass' as the opposite sex. Also- gender dysphoria is an extreme experience of the understandable reaction many of us have to binary and oppressive gender roles in society. Surgery can never make someone into the opposite sex as sex is innate biological reality, and should stop being offered by the medical profession as a solution to what is a mental health issue. I would be surprised if many post operative people feel peace and happiness, because they are still living a lie.

FishInAWetSuitAndFlippers · 02/03/2017 22:52

Prawn There is nothing I want more than to show some of the wonderfully inclusive and encouraging people who defend this trans agenda the actual reality of the situation.

It's not all sunshine and roses and lovely at all.

It's bloody brutal, and it is getting worse the more people try to help with an issue they perceive rather than the actual issue.

Kids rights are being taken away under the guise of being inclusive.

No right to mental health help, no right to experiment with who they are, which all leads to no rights to develop into adulthood and no rights to have children.

If I had to live with the consequences of choices I made when I was 11/12/13 I dread to think where my life would be now.

WankingMonkey · 03/03/2017 00:08

I honestly see 'sex reassignment surgery' or whatever its called the same as treating Body Dysmorphic Disorder sufferers with lipo/boob/nose jobs and such. It just wouldn't happen and I am sure surgery is advised against in those cases. Both are mental health issues where the sufferer feels they are somehow 'wrong' and need to be fixed.

Datun · 03/03/2017 00:24

The people on the site I have linked to said that GIRES tried to co-opt them on the basis that both sets of people require genital surgery. The site said that most of their members do not want genital surgery and much prefer to live as they are. They also said that GIRES wanted to try and promote the idea that transpeople have an intersex 'brain' thereby getting the support of the intersex society. They flatly refused on the grounds that intersex has absolutely nothing to do with gender dysphoria.

The existence of intersex people does not support transgenderism in the slightest. Transgendered people do not have an intersex condition. They have gender dysphoria, far more related to anorexia then intersex.

boo you may think that intersex people provide some kind of endorsement for the basis of transgenderism, but having the wrong cocktail of chromosomes makes you intersex, not transgender. Transgender people do not have the wrong kind of chromosomes. Transgender people do not think they are a third sex. They think they are the opposite sex. A very definite sex.

I can't vouch for the American site, but I should imagine collaborations are deemed advantageous to some people, on some sort of basis.

However I rarely see transpeople jumping up and down and asking for research into gender dysphoria and a cure that does not involve surgery.

This doesn't seem to be something they want. As evidenced by what fish has had to go through.

If my life was utterly dominated by a yearning to be the opposite sex (even though, for men transitioning this seems to be on a largely sexual basis), I would be asking people to throw money at research on the psychological causes.

SnazzyLapels · 03/03/2017 00:55

I couldn't really believe all this stuff I've been reading about on MN so I've just done a bit of research. And found that in July 2015 Ireland passed the Gender recognition Act.

'The Gender Recognition Act allows all individuals over the age of 18 to self-declare their own gender identity... and allows for the acquisition of a new birth certificate that reflects this change.'

The Irish gvt didn't want to do this but pressure came from Europe. The law was going to include a requirement for some sort of diagnosis or medical report, and provisions relating to sport. But these were lobbied out. In the case of the sports provisions it was felt this would unfairly prevent trans people from taking part in sport. From what I've read it seems that the law is especially concerned with preventing people who identified as the opposite gender from being outed, to avoid possible discrimination. So all legal documents should match up and no one, from what I can tell, has the right to question a person's biological sex for any reason. It's really easy to change your legal gender, you just fill out a form.

The advert on the bus saying girls can have penises might be ideological nonsense, but in Ireland it's a legal fact.

This is insane.

So we now have a situation where, in Ireland at a least, a man with a penis can declare himself a woman and doesn't have to tell anyone he/she has a penis when accessing women's services/spaces/competitions or people who would prefer to be attended by a woman.

If I were a sportsman in Ireland I could just change my legal gender to female then enter some sport with a high cash prize and clean up. Or if I were a man planning a crime, I'd change my legal gender to female first so that if I got caught I'd go to a women's prison. Or if I was a male predator and wanted access to vulnerable women but wasn't actually trans...etc. Who could stop me?

Someone tell me I've got it wrong? Please?

A woman identifying as a man doesn't gain any advantage over men. But a man identifying as a woman gains a dangerous advantage over women in many situations. This is why this is a women's rights issue.

MarkRuffaloCrumble · 03/03/2017 01:12

WankingMonkey "I honestly see 'sex reassignment surgery' or whatever its called the same as treating Body Dysmorphic Disorder sufferers with lipo/boob/nose jobs and such. It just wouldn't happen and I am sure surgery is advised against in those cases. Both are mental health issues where the sufferer feels they are somehow 'wrong' and need to be fixed."

I totally agree. I have likened it to helping anorexics lose weight because they identify as fat. Their mental image of themselves doesn't reflect the reality of their body, so should we help them to come to terms with their body through counselling or agree that if they feel fat they must be fat, so how about some surgery to help them look the way they imagine they'll be happy - bit of lipo or a tummy tuck?

Whichoneofyoudidthat · 03/03/2017 01:19

I don't think the tactic is a particularly effective one, even if I agree with the message.

nooka · 03/03/2017 02:04

The Irish Gender Recognition Act came about largely as a result of a series of lawsuits brought by Lynda Foy, a transwoman who wanted to be issued a new birth certificate, in part because at the time she would not have been able to marry a man given that gay marriage was not legal. She was unsuccessful until after Ireland adopted the European Convention on Human Rights, but her three cases were heard in the Irish High Court.

A similar case involving a UK transwoman resulted in the Gender Recognition Act 2004. Lynda Foy was/is a transsexual so her right to have her 'acquired gender' recognised did not require a law that uses self declaration as the bar, a similar approach to the UK law (ie medical transition required) would have addressed the decision of the Irish High Court

Sulis87 · 03/03/2017 06:12

A woman identifying as a man doesn't gain any advantage over men. But a man identifying as a woman gains a dangerous advantage over women in many situations. This is why this is a women's rights issue.

Bloody good point.

cuirderussie · 03/03/2017 07:42

Snazzy yes, I'm in Ireland and I think that law is horrifying. I'm totally out of step with my liberal friends on this, they honestly don't get the implications for women. The liberal left in Ireland is particularly unthinking and of a herd mentality; it's a bit like the US where it's very polarised with religious conservatives on the other side. Lydia Foy lived as Donal Foy, a rugby playing dentist, husband and father of two for nearly 50 years before undergoing transition; his ex wife and daughters tried to block him from trying to change his birth cert as it basically rendered their whole lives a lie. Personally I believe that shows a level of narcissism and delusion that shouldn't be entertained at all and a complete waste of taxpayers' money in legal fees.

Datun · 03/03/2017 08:20

Regarding the upcoming legislation in England, in the recent web chat, Harriet Harman indicated that she was aware of the possibilities of a man exploiting a transition in order to access women in prisons. The recent Ian Huntley case may have alerted her... Although there have been many people transitioning to gain a softer sentence etc Ian Huntley is particularly reviled and very well known, so it is guaranteed to cause mass outrage.

She implied that there would be an element of self certification involved and that a certificate could be appealed - presumably in Huntley's case, it would be appealed and revoked.

Personally I think it is a massive get out clause. You either agree that someone can decide for themselves that they are the opposite sex because it is a rational, logical premise, or you don't.

It's ridiculous to agree with one of the most basic tenets of the ideology, except when it is unpalatable and a vote loser, and then decide you don't agree in the case of this person or that person.

And thinking about it, if this aspect of certificates being revoked when it proves tricky, is highlighted, I can see every TRA on the planet being outraged.

So although she sees it as a clause in the legislation that will prevent the legislation looking like the pile of hooey it is, I can actually see it backfiring.

The question being why is this person trans, but not that person just because they are a double child killer? If they decide they are doing it to exploit the system, the question will have to be asked why? How do you know? It's just a feeling, right?

Datun · 03/03/2017 08:27

It honestly wouldn't surprise me if the second reading hadn't been put back a month because they were busy scribbling about justifying reasons for a revocation that stands up. If they are going to say, well it's obvious he's exploiting it, they have to have a bloody good reason why he is but no one else is.

Huntley would have nothing better to do than take it all the way to the top, if it gets contested. Then maybe there will be a proper, open discussion about why self certification is a dangerous, ridiculous, unfounded and unsound reason to be legally declared a member of the opposite sex on the basis of saying it out loud.

Booboostwo · 03/03/2017 08:39

The traditional medical approach to intersex people was to assign them a sex at birth based on the appearance of external sexual characteristics (basically over a certain size would be a penis, under a certain size a vagina), often talk parents into surgery to support this interpretation and then bring up the child under the mistaken psychological claim that if you bring up a child as a particular sex they identify with that particular sex regardless of biology. This has been historically harmful to many intersex people. More modern approaches are non-interventionist to preserve as many options for the child as he/she grows up, options which include choosing one sex over another or maintaining sexual characteristics that cross binary sex borders. Choosing how to address the child, I.e. as female or male, during this period of development is a difficult question and many families choose to be open with their children about the situation.

This has all come about because of medical discoveries about the importance of chromosomal and endocrinological factors in sex determination and has been aided by the recognition that certain societies place too much emphasis on a binary, strict distinction between sexes. Some cultures, like Native Americans and some Indian sub-continent cultures, celebrate intersex people and don't see the determination of male/female sex as at all important. Intersex discussions are not less about 'fixing' people to conform to what we expect their sexual characteristics to be like, but more about acknowledging who they are and giving them choice to determine who they are.

All this is what makes me annoyed at the "girls have vulvas, boys have penises" mantra, especially coming from a religious source with inevitable connotations that this is how God made us and anyone failing to conform to this standard is somehow wrong.

In that story there are possible parallels with transgender people. Transgender people may or may not have acknowledged biological sources for their desires. Much like other difficult areas like anorexia, we don't know if the desire to change comes from a physiological cause (e.g. chemical imbalance, endocrinological involvement, brain structure), a psychological cause (again there could be physiological reasons or environmental causes), or is simply a desire which it is inappropriate to medicalise. Are transgender people sick and gender reassignment surgery is a possible cure for them, or are they making choices that require medical help to be realized? There is a lot of discussion on this point.

The transgender discussion raises the question what is a woman and equally what is a man? Again this ties into intersex discussions as intersex people present in ways that challenge the binary definition. But forget intersex if you really can't see this point. Imagine a person born biologically female with an unproblematic and functioning female anatomy. She then asks a doctor for a penis transplant (this is a thought experiment, go with it) which is successful so she now has sexual characteristics of both sexes, what is she now, male or female?

She then has her womb and ovaries removed....less female than before?

Now she asks for her vulva to be cosmetically removed so she only has a penis. Can she still call herself a woman?

Personally I don't mind who calls themselves a women, it doesn't upset or offend me if other people see themselves in that way. However, I do think that because women are often minorities, often greatly at risk (from lack of access to basic human rights) the question of who is included in this category can become very contentious.

ludog · 03/03/2017 08:55

You can have surgery that changes your appearance to look like the opposite sex and you call yourself a man or a woman but it doesn't change your biological reality. You are still biologically whichever sex you were born.