Ok - another trans thead

[Bambambini]

This is more about logic and free speech than simply Trans issues. A catholic group paid to advertise their message on a bus that Girls have vulvas and boys have penises. Seems it was a reaction to a similar ad promoting that girls have penises and boys have vulvas. Aibu to be concerned that logic and free speech is under attack? Why was one claim allowed and another censored? This seems to be a sign of the times and I'm getting worried. Who is choosing which ideas, agendas are allowed and promoted?

Are they going to get sued?

Not just sued - criminalised.

They should have to sign some kind of disclaimer saying that they personally understand the risk of not being treated appropriately for their biology. It's not fair for this to fall on others by default.

But that would probably be considered transphobic, too. Because their biology is what they say it is. Or something.

It would be. But it would protect doctors from at least some of the avalanche of legal shit they're going to get in future.

Plus, disclaimers don't work well because it is incredibly difficult to prove that you disclosed absolutely all risks to a patient during this sort of discussion and that they fully understood what you were saying. I had a (non-trans) patient who refused to be referred when I thought she had endometrial cancer and that was a medico-legal nightmare - even without the Alice in Wonderland complication of not being able to tell anyone that she was a woman.

I just want assault to be accepted as traumatising regardless of gender

No-one is disagreeing with that at all. No one is saying women don't commit assault ever. What is being said is that people with penises represent a greater risk to women than other women. And so (for example) it's not fair to lock up a woman in a cell with a person with a penis.

Snazzy - Apparently said penis poses no threat if the owner treats it as a female penis. Apparently men are very scary, putting a man who identifies as a woman in a mans prison is dangerous because all male prisoners are dangerous who just wouldn't be able to help themselves.

A female penis though needs protecting, what do the the women in prison need protecting from? , any non bigoted woman should be able to tell the difference between a male and female penis, so what if most seem to surprisingly be lesbian who are very keen on piv.

Anyone remember the one on the news in Bristol who had the big media campaign to go in a women's prison? the poor victim with 6/7 convictions for assaulting barmen and bouncers was too delicate to be around men.

I just want assault to be accepted as traumatising regardless of gender

No one is suggesting otherwise. But surely you want to keep as many women safe as possible and that means focusing on the greatest threat to them - which is undeniably men not women. Saying men are the greatest threat is not the same as saying women are never a threat.

I can't see what you stand to gain as an assault victim by derailing attempts to focus on the greatest threat - no one is trying to invalidate the trauma you suffered. It's like someone who has been in a rail accident objecting to road safety improvements because "people get hurt on trains too". It gains you nothing and it distracts from helping the greatest number of people.

That's a really, really good analogy, Shiny. Applause.

I don't think I have ever seen a debate about trans issues which does not end up with women defending themselves against the straw man "but women assault too" argument.

I have never seen women claim that 100% of assault perpetrators are men.

Combating concerns about men assaulting women by using this particular straw man is ridiculous, illogical, misogynistic and really fucking annoying.

Datun, i think the reason this has spiralled is precisely because of the money pharmaceutical companies can make - combined with the neoliberal choice agenda, and somehow shoe-horning in the idea that sex is a matter of identity and not biology.
Plus it reinforces gender differences thus undermining the gains of feminism towards sexual equality. Because sex doesn't exist, just gender and that is a choice, right?

As I have said on other threads, I find it interesting that the Trans movement took off at about the same time as HRT's popularity plummeted amongst menopausal women (because of concerns about cancer). I'm not suggesting that the whole TA movement is a sinister Big Pharma plot, but I do think that they may have latched onto it because they were seeking an alternative market.

Nooka

Thanks for clarifying that the Irish Gender Recognition Act 2015 didn't actually need to be based on 'self-identification' to satisfy Europe or the Irish High Court Ruling. It could have been based on medical assessment like it currently is in the UK. So why does the Irish law allow people to just choose their gender, no questions asked? Why is this being pushed for in the UK? What's so very wrong with taking steps to make sure the system isn't abused?

Ludog - The change in Irish law came in very under the radar (or else I'm living under a rock). I wasn't aware of it until I started reading up on this here.

Yep. I feel like we've officially lost a crucial debate before we even knew there was one.

Datun You make some some really interesting points about the UK bill and the Lian Huntley problem. I think you're right.

Shiny The whole thing gets more and more ridiculous.

Intersex is confusing to me. I thought it would come down to chromosomes: you have both penis and vulva, so are you XX or XY? But what actually happens is that an assessment is made of 'functional capacity'. That is: Could this person stand against a wall and pee? If they could, they are raised a male and any surgery necessary to achieve it is done. If they couldn't, they are raised a female and any surgery necessary is done. I was quite horrified, tbh.

Seafood - Apparently said penis poses no threat if the owner treats it as a female penis. You see this is why I think so many people don't see this as a women's rights issue. They assume that if a man says he feels like a woman then 'she' must hate 'her' penis and would therefore never use it! It's clearly a stupid perspective if you give it a moments thought, but that's exactly what people don't do because they are only thinking about the rights of the trans people. So many people seem to believe that any man who believes he is, or just wants to be treated as if they were, a woman is automatically more vulnerable than any woman.

Shiny and Cocoa After reading Ben Goldaming's book, Bad Pharma, I wouldn't put anything past the pharmaceutical industry.

so what if most (transwomen) seem to surprisingly be lesbian who are very keen on piv

Elegantly put!

"Anyone remember the one on the news in Bristol who had the big media campaign to go in a women's prison? the poor victim with 6/7 convictions for assaulting barmen and bouncers was too delicate to be around men."

Oh, the hung angel with the seven inch surprise?

I signed that bloody petition too. And convinced friends to.

What a fool I was. I didn't think anything through, just wanted to support those I thought were suffering badly. I suspect this is the issue with many 'trans allies'. They do not look into the deeper implications of the things we are requested to support.

Venus:
women serial murderers (I'm not denying they exist, they do but in the ratio of about 1 to every 5/6 men) kill both sexes fairly indiscriminately and it tends to be people they know. They are generally motivated by personal gain in a financial sense

That fits the Midsomer Murders model of criminality

Barcoo

Midsomer is a very dangerous place to live if you are a white, middle class woman.

I don't know where DCI Barnaby stands on trans issues. Hell, he might be a woman for all I know.

I think you'll find they are non-binary gendervex.

I remember that case because they're from Bath and it was a hot topic among acquaintances, I was met with blank stares when I pointed out it was for assault and not the first time, all people could say was 'it's like they're being punished twice', and the women in the women's prison aren't being punished twice by being force to share their space with a violent male?( regardless of how they perceive themselves)

and the women in the women's prison aren't being punished twice by being force to share their space with a violent male?

Oh, but women aren't actual people, we don't count.
Just like when young rapist's lives are "forever ruined" by some few years in prison, but the victim's life is ... well, ruined forever by the rape, but no one case about that. Or about the lives of the rapists' future victims when they are allowed to walk free.

• cares, not case.

I can't find any information about the proposed changes to the law in the UK. Can anyone provide a link?

Whilst we're on this subject, was anyone else pissed off to receive cards through the door from the ONS asking if questions of which gender you identify as being on the next census, I mean really? is this supposed to be such a massive thing now? I wanted to write back fuck off but thought best not in the end.

Snazzy - services.parliament.uk/bills/2016-17/genderidentityprotectedcharacteristic.html

this might of help, the bill is currently going through the motions in parliment, "A Bill to make gender identity a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010 in place of gender reassignment and to make associated provision for transgender and other persons; and for connected purposes." because feels, innit.