Ok - another trans thead

[Bambambini]

This is more about logic and free speech than simply Trans issues. A catholic group paid to advertise their message on a bus that Girls have vulvas and boys have penises. Seems it was a reaction to a similar ad promoting that girls have penises and boys have vulvas. Aibu to be concerned that logic and free speech is under attack? Why was one claim allowed and another censored? This seems to be a sign of the times and I'm getting worried. Who is choosing which ideas, agendas are allowed and promoted?

Sybis1
I love the idea that people are 'ignoring' intersex people by stating that we have only 2 biological sexes.

I have heard an unbelievable amount about people with intersex conditions lately. Truly.
And none of it from anyone with one of these conditions themselves.

There are a few different things that class as 'intersex' and they are usually to do with things going awry in the womb

It is like my child being born deaf. It is still true to say 'human beings have 5 senses" and I won't kick off and claim you are wrong because my son only has 4. Something went wrong in his development.

There are 2 biological sexes. That is still true no matter how many people are born with both or neither sets of genitalia. I feel sorry that people with these conditions are being used this way. I'm sure many don't want a part of it.

To answer your question it was the "Don't be fooled" comment and the underlying reason behind the bus campaign that I personally viewed as offensive. I think that if I was the parent of a child struggling with the genitalia that they had been born with then this message would upset me.

But why? And why is making factually incorrect statements, in this case saying there are boys with vaginas and girls with penises, considered fine and not offensive at all?

TumbleTrans I just have to say that you are bloody marvelous, and it is great to hear the opinions of someone in your position. You are the absolute epitome to how to conduct rational debate as well.

Lifeissweet
Just last month a supermodel "came out" as intersex with a view to raising awareness.

"There are 2 biological sexes" is a scientifically controversial statement (and I think the prevailing view, although I'm open to being corrected, is that biological sex is a spectrum, or that other biological sexes, other than male and female exist).

And although I understand the point you're trying to make in your senses example, I can't help but point out that humans have more than 5 senses.

I do consider it limiting to say 'hey, you can't do/be this way because of your body parts

But you CAN'T do or be certain things because of your body parts. You can't be a biological mother if you haven't got a uterus. You can't see if you are blind. You can't be white if you are black. You can't be a woman if you have a penis. You can't fly because you don't have wings.

Biology limits us all. Nothing can change that.

What are these other sexes and what role do they have in human reproduction?

"There are 2 biological sexes" is a scientifically controversial statement (and I think the prevailing view, although I'm open to being corrected, is that biological sex is a spectrum, or that other biological sexes, other than male and female exist)

It is not contraversial scientifically, it is fact. There are 2 sexes. There are no more.

Where do you people get this horseshit from?

Whatever your views on gender, biological sex is not binary

Yes it fucking well is. Anyone who is both (or neither) male and female has an abnormality.

biological sex is a spectrum

It's really not. Male. Female. Situations where nature and genetics went wrong.

Dear sweet Jesus, sibys . I wish I was articulate enough to respond to that without being banned.

'I think that if I was the parent of a child struggling with the genitalia that they had been born with then this message would upset me.'

You might think differently if there was no psychological support for your desperately unhappy child unless you agreed to them taking drugs with serious and permanent side effects first. We have a parent on these threads in that exact situation.

Thing is, Childminder, that the mother of one gender dysphoric child posts on these threads and she definitely doesn't have a problem with biology. If your DC suffers from GID you're likely to be all too aware that sex changes are impossible.

You seem to be a bit too ready to assume you know how trans people and the parents of trans kids will feel about things. It's as if you're taking offence on their behalf. How you feel about these issues is your business. How they feel about them is theirs.

My cousin is a transwoman and I had this conversation with her last week. She simply said 'i know I am not female, I am a transwoman.'

I think the transactivists are doing the people they are meant to represent a great disservice.

What you're doing, Sibys, is known as COINing. COINing is Co-opting Intersex Narratives to promote trans ideology. It's a diversionary tactic as it is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Whatever your views on gender, biological sex is not binary

Whatever your views on astrology, the moon is definitely made of green cheese.

See, we can all just make up random shit.

Biology limits us all. Nothing can change that.

Exactly.

If that shitty picture had stated "girls can have short hair, boys can have long hair", then that would be different.
But it didn't, it stated, implicitly, that girls are only allowed to have short hair if they falsely claim to be boys. Which is wrong and sexist and, yes, limiting.

I'm sure everyone taking issue with my statement is aware that there are arrangements of chromosomes, other than XX and XY. How you categorise sexes is dependent on the particular model you choose for interpreting the data.

If you want to uphold the model that all people are either simply 'male' or 'female' and those are the only two sexes, you'll need to accept that some females have penises and some men have vulvas.

That's completely distinct from any trans issues.

Im starting to think the transactivists' agenda doesn't actually have much to do with increasing rights for trans people, but is more to do with ensuring that any man who says he identifies as a woman is able to access women's spaces (not just toilets, prisons, refuges etc). There has also been a suggestion that the next logical step from saying that children know their own gender identities and are able to consent to radical medical treatment, is that they are therefore mature enough to consent to sex.

A discussion of COINing from an organization that represents people with intersex conditions.

If you want to uphold the model that all people are either simply 'male' or 'female' and those are the only two sexes, you'll need to accept that some females have penises and some men have vulvas

It's not a model, its basic biological fact. And no, we do not need to accept that at all.

I'm sure everyone taking issue with my statement is aware that there are arrangements of chromosomes, other than XX and XY

They are abnormalities.

dependant on the particular model you choose for interpreting the data
I can only assume you're trolling now, for fuck's SAKE!!!

All those who think biology isn't a thing never become farmers, will you?

Prawnofthepatriarchy - the first thing I said on this thread was 'setting aside the debate on trans issues'. I'm not making any point in respect of trans people. I'm saying that 'men have penises and women have vulvas' is not a simple, biological fact. There are variences.

It'd be great if people could acknowledge intersex people without getting drawn into a trans debate.

dependant on the particular model you choose for interpreting the data

I choose facts. And science. You choose politics and ideology.