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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Ok - another trans thead

425 replies

Bambambini · 01/03/2017 13:20

This is more about logic and free speech than simply Trans issues. A catholic group paid to advertise their message on a bus that Girls have vulvas and boys have penises. Seems it was a reaction to a similar ad promoting that girls have penises and boys have vulvas. Aibu to be concerned that logic and free speech is under attack? Why was one claim allowed and another censored? This seems to be a sign of the times and I'm getting worried. Who is choosing which ideas, agendas are allowed and promoted?

OP posts:

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KateDaniels2 · 01/03/2017 15:18

one sign limits and judges people's bodies, and one allows greater freedom of bodily autonomy.

One is fact and one is not. Again why is one opinion worth more than another? Especially when one is not an opinion but a fact.

Oh and my city centre often has people of all religions out and about to spread tgeir workd and attempt conversion. Not just catholics.

Astoria7974 · 01/03/2017 15:21

Billsykesdog - what forced conversions? Give me evidence or should I just assume you're an ignorant racist?

icanteven · 01/03/2017 15:30

Also, for the love of fuck, when and how did it become acceptable to say that feelings, thoughts, the clothing you like, the job you do, etc is what defines being a woman?! We're not some amorphous interchangable mass with indentical likes and dislikes. What we have in common is our biology. We should be striving AWAY from the kind of shit that tells women how to act and feel based purely on their biology, not legitimising it by saying that anyone, regardless of sex, can call themselves a women so long as they feel pink and fluffy enough

THIS - A MILLION TIMES.

brasty · 01/03/2017 15:34

Lots of religions proselytise.

VestalVirgin · 01/03/2017 15:44

TBH I'd rather both had been banned. Not sure I like seeing discussions of children's genitalia on the side of a bus.

This.

But if we can't have that, I think none should be banned. Free speech and all that. The only good reason to ban it is that it is about children's genitalia, and that is true about both.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 01/03/2017 15:46

Neither ad should have been allowed. Using the side of a bus to comment on children's genitalia is weird and creepy. However given that the first ad was allowed the second should have been also. Rixera, how do you define the word "woman"? I ask because I have never heard anyone promoting the trans agenda define the word in a way that isn't either circular (a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman) or based on regressive stereotypes (women are interested in make up/play with dolls/wear heels). My definition is adult human female.

The author you quote is already neck deep in the Kool-Aid, judging by the terminology used. Sex is not assigned at birth, unless the baby's genitals are ambiguous. The sex of a newborn is observed. There's no metaphorical Sorting Hat.

Gender identity is moot. I can't count the number of posters just on MN who have said they don't have a gender identity. I definitely don't. If someone asked me how I know I'm a woman I would refer to my body and life experiences (childbirth etc). I don't have anything like a female soul or essence and I remain unconvinced that anyone does. When a transwoman claims to feel like a woman I'd like to know how they know. To me it looks like appropriation.

Trifleorbust · 01/03/2017 15:52

Both ridiculous, divisive ads. I wouldn't accept money to publish them. Nothing to do with censorship or free speech - I would just politely decline the money.

VestalVirgin · 01/03/2017 16:11

Both ridiculous, divisive ads.

Divisive?

What the catholic group did was like advertising the message: "The earth is round" or "the sky is blue" - superfluous, yes. Pointless, probably. But there is nothing divisive about stating facts that everyone knows.

TheOnlyLivingBoyinNewCork · 01/03/2017 16:16

Would you be happy for the catholic church to write message saying "marriage is between a man and a woman

That isn't a fact. Boys have penises and girls have vulvas is an objective and absolute fact.

I never thought I'd be on the side of the catholic church, but the TRA's are pushing us all certain ways....

Floggingmolly · 01/03/2017 16:17

I'm not sure the second is particularly ridiculous, either; when it was clearly in response to the first pile of bollocks

joystir59 · 01/03/2017 16:27

How is saying boys have penises and girls have vulvas in anyway threatening anyone's gender? All that was stated was biological fact relating to sex.

ChildminderH · 01/03/2017 16:37

OK so reading the article linked the Catholic message is believed to be a response to posters put up in northern Spain by a transgender rights group, which read: "There are girls with penises and boys with vulvas. It's as simple as that."

The above message wasn't on the side of a bus and wasn't causing any offence. It was simply acknowledging the fact that the issue of a person's gender isn't always as simple as whether they are born with male or female genitalia.. Indeed as has already been pointed out, some people are actually born with both - so are they male or female in the eyes of the church?

The banned bus that the Catholic church group wanted to drive around Northern Spain states:

"Boys have penises, girls have vulvas. Do not be fooled."

The other side of the bus states: "If you are born a man, you are a man. If you are a woman, you will continue to be one."

In my eyes that is offensive for all kinds of reasons, so I think it was right to be banned tbh. I don't have a problem with the posters put up by the transgender rights group and don't see it as a freedom of speech issue.

Trifleorbust · 01/03/2017 16:41

VestalVirgin: Of course there is. Don't be daft.

VestalVirgin · 01/03/2017 16:45

The above message wasn't on the side of a bus and wasn't causing any offence.

It did cause offence. It depicted naked children, which is offence-causing in and of itself, not to mention the factually incorrect statement and the highly sexist gender stereotyping.

I somehow doubt the Catholic group had pictures accompanying their messages about vulvas and penises.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 01/03/2017 16:58

The ads claiming boys,have vulvas were put up in public transport stations, which makes the choice of a bus for the second ad understandable. How you reach the conclusion that the original campaign wasn't causing offence is a mystery to me, Childminder. As a parent I would find it extremely offensive and I'd bet there are far more people who disagree with the first ad than with the second, which is a factual statement. Sex changes aren't possible.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 01/03/2017 17:02

There's more about the story on a gender critical blog, with quite a lot of BTL discussion too.

WankingMonkey · 01/03/2017 17:02

The first message basically expects everyone to accept that what they know about sex is moot and that sex doesn't even exist, all that matters is a feeling in your head. Schools need to get rid of basic biology classes and replace them with psych tbh if this is the route we are going down, as science does not matter at all and is actually false.

The second is fact. Biological fact...

I do not see how the second causes offense but the first does not.

TheOnlyLivingBoyinNewCork · 01/03/2017 17:03

The other side of the bus states: "If you are born a man, you are a man. If you are a woman, you will continue to be one."In my eyes that is offensive for all kinds of reasons

It is the simple biological truth. If you born a male human, you will continue to be a male human, even if you alter your body by surgery and medication. You may feel any number of things, but your biology does not change.

It's gone mad when putting naked children on posters telling people that children can choose their own biology is thought to be a good thing, while a sign stating biological fact is offensive.
Post truth world indeed.

ChildminderH · 01/03/2017 17:13

Well as a parent and grandparent I wasn't offended by this image but I accept some people may have been.

I think the Mayor of Barcelona sentiments about the banned bus are spot on though: "In Barcelona there is no place for LGBT-phobic buses. We want our children to grow in freedom and without hatred."

Others will disagree of course

WankingMonkey · 01/03/2017 17:15

LGBT-phobic? In what way? If we accept that sex doesn't exist or matter in any areas of life, it is negating gay men and lesbians in the first place, as their attraction to same sex people is bigoted and invalid?!

ludog · 01/03/2017 17:15

How did we get here in such a short space of time? A few years ago the objective truth was just that, the truth. Now we are expected to ignore the truth and subscribe to some crazy post-truth reality and never question it. No matter how much someone wishes it wasn't so, if they are born male then they remain male even if they have surgery to change their outward appearance and present as female. It must be incredibly painful to have such dysmorphia about one's body but denying it doesn't change the objective truth. It's ludicrous that in the name of being PC, those who state the truth are labelled bigots. The emperor really has no clothes on and more and more people are waking up to that fact.

WankingMonkey · 01/03/2017 17:15

That picture gets creepier the more I look at it too. Almost seems like an ad for paedophiles. Who on earth thought a picture with naked kids on was a good idea...

ludog · 01/03/2017 17:17

*dysphoria

TheWorldAccordingToToads · 01/03/2017 17:21

The other side of the bus states: "If you are born a man, you are a man. If you are a woman, you will continue to be one."

HTF is that offensive? It's just a biological fact. HTF have we got to the point where stating biological facts are considered offensive? I actually feel so bloody sorry for biology teachers these days.

TumbleTrans · 01/03/2017 17:31

ChildminderH, why is stating facts offensive but making incorrect statements, in this case saying that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas, is perfectly fine and not offensive at all?

That's a genuine question btw and I'm interested to know why you hold those views.

FWIW, I'm a trans woman. I am not offended by anyone saying that boys have penises and that people born male will always be male because well, it's the truth. How can the truth be offensive? How can biology be offensive? I also know several other trans gendered people (both trans men and trans women) who aren't offended by biological facts either.

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