Ok - another trans thead

[Bambambini]

This is more about logic and free speech than simply Trans issues. A catholic group paid to advertise their message on a bus that Girls have vulvas and boys have penises. Seems it was a reaction to a similar ad promoting that girls have penises and boys have vulvas. Aibu to be concerned that logic and free speech is under attack? Why was one claim allowed and another censored? This seems to be a sign of the times and I'm getting worried. Who is choosing which ideas, agendas are allowed and promoted?

I'm a rape victim and I don't appreciate my 'fear' being appropriated as a reason to treat transwomen as anything less than women

So am I. You don't speak for me. I don't appreciate my rights as a woman and a rape victim being shat all over by a stupid ill thought-through ideology. I don't appreciate the huge amount of appropriation done by the trans lobby. Transwomen are not women. Why don't you give me just one good reason why they are?

The stereotyping in the advert was what I most noticed as I suppose we are supposed to recognise a gender by hairstyle!

Well, by what else? They weren't wearing clothes, so ... hm, I suppose the feminine gendered children could have worn a bow in their hair?

Gender is a bullshit, made-up nonsense, which is why there is no way to recognise it. So, hair length will have to do as indicator.

Of course, we still are asked to consider "Danielle" Muscato a woman, despite this individual not passing the hair length test.

... I also know quite some male heavy metal fans who would be rather pissed off if someone told them they must be women because of their hair length.

The preference by many women for having a female dr or nurse if they need to have eg a smear test is not solely to do with whether the patient has been raped or not. It's also about having the same biology, having had the same experiences related to this biology as the other person.

"to treat transwomen as anything less than women"

Nobody is talking about treating trans women as people less than women.

We are talking about treating transwomen as people different than women. Because they are.

If it's illegal to reveal a patient's sex without permission...

So that means I can exercise the same right and say that my doctor is not allowed to refer me, or communicate with any person about me, unless she has my express permission.

Rixera

Anyone can commit assaults, gender has nothing to do with it.

I'm sorry for your experience, but sexual violence is very definitely gendered. 98% of sexual crime is committed by men.

Rixera, I appreciate that you are equally traumatized regardless of the sex of whoever is touching you, but yours is not the majority view. Women are overwhelmingly less likely to commit sex or violent crimes and for that reason women feel safer when men are excluded from places where they are unclothed, dealing with intimate functions or otherwise vulnerable. I think I'd be safe to say that nearly all women feel safer with a random woman than a strange man.

The differences in criminality are dramatic. Men commit 98% of sex and 90% of violent crime. In the UK only men can commit rape as by definition the act requires a penis.

Long hair in men is something I find hugely attractive. Never occurred to me - or them - that the hair might have changed their sex. That would have been a major disappointment.

My sentiments exactly, Prawn.

They assume there must be sensible checks and balances, but there are none.

Yes, indeed.

I've tried to talk to both my children and DH about this - about self-identifying MTT in women's sports, about access to women's loos and other spaces.

The teenagers huffily say that I just don't understand about gender. DH brushed it off by saying 'Nah, I think you must have got that wrong, that won't be happening', at which point I got a bit incoherent with rage.

I have a long way to go here.

Women are overwhelmingly less likely to commit sex or violent crimes and for that reason women feel safer when men are excluded from places where they are unclothed, dealing with intimate functions or otherwise vulnerable.

Especially as any male who would intentionally put himself into a situation where women are forced to let him touch them (for example by demanding to be treated as female police officer when he is, in fact, male) is even more likely to be a rapist than an average male stranger picked from a crowd.
I'd probably be more comfortable with a random male. But I don't think women even have the right to choose a random male police officer to talk to about a rape, or to be searched by ... just the right that a female does this.

Long hair in men is something I find hugely attractive. Never occurred to me - or them - that the hair might have changed their sex. That would have been a major disappointment.

Well, they would still have their penis, as shown by that picture. They'd be hugely attractive, bepenised "women" ...

I suppose you will have to redefine yourself as homogenderual woman who is attracted to women with penises.

Especially as any male who would intentionally put himself into a situation where women are forced to let him touch them (for example by demanding to be treated as female police officer when he is, in fact, male) is even more likely to be a rapist than an average male stranger picked from a crowd.

Of course. Deliberate boundary violation is strongly associated with sexual abuse, assault and rape.

Would you be happy for the catholic church to write message saying "marriage is between a man and a woman".

Is this a serious question? Of course they should have the right to post such a message if they want. It's a stupid view to have, but there is this thing called "free speech." If you disagree then challenge the other person--don't ban their view.

Actually, women are overwhelmingly less likely to be convicted of sex crimes, that's not the same thing as less likely to commit them at all.
I attend a survivors support group and out of the women, exactly half have reported. Out of the men, none have. Out of the ones that reported, only the abuse committed by men went to court.

Being worried about abusive MTF doctors or police or strangers in changing room takes awareness off the issue of minimising abuse perpetrated by women- which is also done by saying they can't penetrate with a penis so it can't be that bad, it's not like real rape.

The differences in criminality are dramatic. Men commit 98% of sex and 90% of violent crime

Except TAs are now arguing that it is transphobic to say that violence is gendered Because - you know - women commit violence too especially the ones who are actually men.

Isn't it remarkable how often TAs' views coincide with Men's Rights Activists?

I know that some women have absolutely no problem with male gynecologists.
I wonder how comfortable those women would be with a male who knowingly and intentionally forces himself on women who'd rather have a female gynecologist.

I know that I, a woman who is not embarrassed about periods and usually deems it sufficient to have a couple of trees between me and the males in the trekking group I am travelling with, am uncomfortable with males being allowed to force their way into the women's toilets.
Because my intuition tells me that it is not the nice men I have no problem with who will make use of this newly gained right.

which is also done by saying they can't penetrate with a penis so it can't be that bad, it's not like real rape.

Well tbf, its not 'like real rape'. In the sense that it won't/can't result in pregnancy. I am sure it is just as traumatising though.

I don't really see what you are hoping to achieve here as it seems you are trying to say that females commit sexual crimes at a rate similar to males? Which is just not true, nor backed up by evidence.

Regardless of your goal...female people should be able to have areas of life separate from male people. They should have the right to chose who touches their bodies. I don't see why people argue against this. The 'but women do it too!' argument just doesn't really hold up as there is no way to tell a female predator from an ordinary female, however there are clear ways to tell males from females...

It isn't actually rape legally in the UK. Rape is about penetration. But this is a derail and I doubt you'll find many people to agree with you that sexual violence isn't gendered.

You cannot dictate what other rape victims and other women are allowed to be concerned about. It's not about you and your cognitive dissonance and logic contortions.

Can I have that good reason why transwomen are women yet?

Rixera so because, in your opinion, women and men are equally likely to be violent, it's not acceptable for people to be able to ask for a person of their preferred sex to deal with them? And to be able to object if someone who is transgender is allocated to them, without being accused of a hate crime?

Actually, women are overwhelmingly less likely to be convicted of sex crimes, that's not the same thing as less likely to commit them at all.

Also its something ridiculous like 5% of rapists that actually get convicted. So males are not likely to be convicted of anything either...

I know that some women have absolutely no problem with male gynecologists.

Personally, I prefer a male. In my experience they have caused less pain and been so much more gentle. Where when I have had smears and stuff off females they don't seem to care about comfort as much.

I get that this differs from doctor to doctor though. I don't request either..but my experience with males has been much better.

Not sure how I would feel about a male if I had been raped though. I like to think it wouldn't matter, but I expect something like that fucks you up a lot and gives huge trust issues.

Isn't it remarkable how often TAs' views coincide with Men's Rights Activists?

Considering that most TAs are male ... is it not the same thing by a different name?
They are certainly not doing any activism that benefits females.

I mean, name one single thing that has improved for FtT transsexuals as consequence of the transwacktivism.
They are now allowed to use the men's toilets ... which will ... what? Protect them from violent radfems in the women's toilets, while the violent males that are such a danger to transwomen will magically spare them?
I do not think so. In fact, I know most FtT do not even want to use the men's toilet - the only ones who want to use it are those who can be sure that they pass, and they could have used it without any insane new laws.

They can now be imprisoned in men's prisons ... I seriously doubt they want that.

They can now die of ovarian cancer that was not diagnosed because their doctor wasn't allowed to write the suspicion on the referral. How wonderful!

I don't object to the individual undergoing the procedure choosing, of course not, but I do object to the blanket statement of it being inappropriate for the professional or whatever to be MtF. That's unfair and prohibitive.

There is no way of telling a predator from a non predator so do as you please to pick the individual who you feel most comfortable being vulnerable with.
But don't say it's better for all rape victims to exclude MtF people because it's not.

And the lack of a risk of pregnancy doesn't make it a better rape! All assault is traumatising. And while the prosecution based evidence does point to it being gendered that's not because it is but because of the difficulty getting evidence. First off people don't usually believe women assault (as we see). Next, the victims are usually more worried about speaking out because of the prejudice. Further, there's less physical evidence due to a lack of penis.

It's not 'mens rights', I'm not a man. I just want assault to be accepted as traumatising regardless of gender, and gender is not a natural indication of who will assault.

It's not 'mens rights', I'm not a man. I just want assault to be accepted as traumatising regardless of gender, and gender is not a natural indication of who will assault.

It is gendered. There is no basis other than evidence to decide this issue. The evidence is that men are much more violent overall and sexually violent than women. You are making a lot of assumptions that are ungrounded in any evidence. That's "alternative facts" for you. And you are repeating the same dodgy arguments that MRAs do.