to think that when people congratulate themselves for their great parenting they are often just lucky

[deliverdaniel]

I've seen so many threads on here where people say that people should "just teach their kids to, or not to x, y, z" or "do some parenting" or "mine never did that at that age- I just taught them not to" or similar. They are often quite smug and even nasty in tone.

Of course good parenting matters. But it seems as though so much of what kind of kid you get is just the luck of the draw. Eg- my friend's toddler can easily be told "no" and will respect the boundaries. Mine can be told no a million times, with consquences enforced every time and will keep pushing and pushing. My kids are pretty good eaters. My friend's will basically only eat pasta and nothing else, but I really wouldn't say we have done anything substantially different on that front. I just got lucky. one of my kids sits still and "behaves" easily. The other one is wild. One is a great sleeper. The other one terrible. One whines at everything. One is generally always positive and agreeable. Etc etc.

Of course there are parents who just ignore their kids behaving badly and are screwing up in some major way. But mostly I see parents doing their best , generally doing similar kinds of things w regards to discipline/ eating/ sleep etc etc and getting v different results depending on the kid. Caveat- mine are still pretty young- 6 and 3 so maybe my "parenting" willbear fruit later, for better or worse, but so much of it just seems down to luck. AIBU?

That they read A LOT of literature on parenting, and a lot of it has had good effect.

But really you have no idea. Lots of people read up on literature, put it all into place and still have a two year old that throws tantrums. It's actually a normal stage of development. Obviously you could make it worse by giving in to the tantrum - but the fact that they're two year old is calm is down to a large degree to their temperament. I don't think you have to view parenting as hell just because you might have sleepless nights and tantrums. That's just realistic.

I think reading up on parenting literature is a great idea and you can make a difference but you'd be foolish to think that you're reading is going to mean you don't have a fussy eater or your toddler doesn't throw tantrums. A toddler that doesn't throw tantrums is either naturally calm or too scared to show their emotions. One is luck and one is obviously negative.

I have the real life experience of one that I am lucky with and one that will make me go grey early.

Both parented the same way

One is academic, sensible, mature, honest, never had a tantrum, well mannered and polite.

The other is hilariously funny but over dramatic, silly, no sense, dishonest, rude, immature, doesn't care for school. She's the eldest.

Proud of both of them

Redyellowpeppers Did you actually read the study? Because what you have quoted is the clickbait headline. This study doesn't show that 'autism' disappears (if you have autism - you have autism - you can't cure it/switch it on/off)

What the study showed was that highly specialised early (ha ha ha) intervention showed a long term overall reduction in symptoms. This intervention was 12 months long - 6 months with 12 two hour supported sessions (and the parent had to commit to at least half an hour a day - practise) - and then a further 6 months still with support. So not just your average 'parenting course' - but actually training parents in partnership as co-therapists.

[[http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(16)31229-6/fulltext actual data ]]

So yes - any parent that signs up for that level of commitment is going to be able to give their child a lot of benefit.

But here are the issues

• lots of children aren't diagnosed that early
• it's more expensive to deliver than a few parenting classes in the local children's centre
• it takes huge commitment and effort on the part of the parent - who often still has to run a home, deal with other children, do a job etc etc

Yes - we could all be great parents with this level of support and if someone would just give us an extra 12 hours in each day

I disagree that having good eaters is purely down to luck.

Food and the dc eating well is something I've always been really passionate about and put a lot of effort into from weaning. Both dc were fed home cooked meals from weaning, never used convenience food. I don't think there's a fruit or vegetable in existence that they haven't tried. We never ordered from the kids menus in restaurants and cafés, they always had 'adult food' in small portions, which restaurants will usually accommodate if you ask - so would happily sit and eat curry or steak or stroganoff from age 2 rather than the kids burger and chips options.

Ds2 took a lot more effort than ds1 to try new things and eat in a balanced way - he's a carb fiend and always had been...so although he would eat pasta, rice, bread over anything, we've spent a lot of time talking through how your body works and the different vitamins in different veg and the value of protein so he's not forced to eat his veg or meat but we've worked with him so much that he now does it voluntarily because he knows his body needs it.

They're now 6 and 9 and wonderful eaters. They have their dislikes of a handful of foods but they'll try anything and everything including fish, seafood, snails when in france and lots of things that many kids wouldn't try or even recognise.

I'm no super mum by any means but food is something I do take a lot of credit for and it don't think the way my dc eat is down to pure 'luck' because it's taken a lot of effort from us. If that makes me smug, so be it.

I think I agree with the OP. But then I look at my SIL who has 4 kids, all very well behaved. Their personalities are obviously all different, and one is prone to naughtiness far more. But still when it matters they are all very well behaved. So I don't know.

I have four children, all very different. I used that parenting styles made a big difference to how children turned out.

Now I think it's about 80 per cent personality and 20 per cent parenting. I also think that if you child is clothed, loved, fed and part of a caring family that they are very, very likely to turn out ok in the end.

My eldest is, quite frankly, a bit of a horror in terms of behaviour. He
She's against every single rule I make. My third child just stood and happily held my hand for 20 mins at the school gate, without even murmuring, while I chatted to some of the other parents. You can teach a child that.

Yanbu!

My favourite bit of mumsnet 'advice' is the whole "tooth-brushing/sitting nicely at table/whatever is non-negotiable in MY house".

Good for you, your kid's a crap negotiator so well behaved. Have a medal.

OP - my ds was a toddler who saw NO as a challenge to do it more, was difficult to parent as a toddler, was hard as a pre-teen, but now he is 14 and seems to be turning into a lovely young man.
dd1 was the child who when you said NO, she stopped in her tracks and never did it again. She has been easy to parent and at 12 is turning out to be a lovely young woman!

My philosophy has always been to be consistent, loving and structured. It works, to a point. We still have days when there is shouting in the house (from me and kids)

Shaping, directing, building confidence etc, all the things I strive to do.

Someone once said to me - good parents aren't the ones with well behaved kids, good parents are the ones who know what to do when their kids behave badly.

I had a chuckle about this the other week.
Some friends were having a bit of a moan about their teenager's behaviour. Another friend piped up with her DD would never do that.
One of the teen parents snapped "No because she's 7"

I think I am middling, but the best parents I know have what looks like on the surface the naughtiest child (long story). But I've known them all a long time and compared to what that child was like, that child's behaviour has improved so much and that is 99% because of the huge effort and support of their parents.

I think it depends on the parent more.
Yes, It does depend on the child. Ds1 was very difficult. Always will be. Ds2 is a brease.
But it depends more on the parent. I was never a PFB parent. I recognise that whilst I am loving and solid, fairly balanced, and generally reasonable, I am open and reasonable about my LIMITED control/affect on the 2 different children.

Fascinated by this subject, as myself and DH both had horrible abusive upbringings. But yet we're both lovely 😊

Maybe we turned out ok in spite of them, not because of them. And maybe with our personalities we would have turned out ok no matter what? Or if we had good parents maybe we would have been more successful, not left home at 15, got a better education, not chosen further abusive relationships etc.

Nature or nurture?

I agree with Janice: "it's about 80 per cent personality and 20 per cent parenting."

I think the combination of the parents' temperament and the child's temperament is really important- a highly anxious mother will struggle with a 'difficult' high needs baby but with an 'easy' baby will slowly relax and become less anxious. A laid back, chilled mother will take a high needs baby in her stride.
Many children's behaviour does not automatically correlate with the quality of their parenting. I think I am generally a good parent but certainly not an exceptional one and there are a few aspects of parenting that I'm crap at. My 14 year old DD is an absolute star - she's kind, funny, popular and conscientious. She throws herself into everything and the school adore her, she's always coming home with certificates and we get constant postcards from school saying how generally great she is. I know quite a few people who have put far more time and effort into parenting than me but are having problems with their teenagers. Some parents of children with difficult temperaments/personalities have to put in an enormous amount of work to get their child to behave in a socially acceptable manner but that child's behaviour may still be 'worse' than a child who is naturally 'good' whose parents haven't had to make much effort at all.

Emerald

Your post glosses over lacks the trauma parents go through to feed fussy children, like dd. Dd wouldn't eat ANYTHING, which required chewing bar toast until she was 2.5. I actually cried when she at a chicken nugget because that meant I could give her something from a restaurant as at that age - she would only eat my version of a certain food and nuggets are pretty generic. It was a mega step for her and at the time, she was transfixed on her latest food phase - probably the pasta bolognese stage. As from very early, she went through many many one food stages. There was her toast stage, her Greek Yoghurt phase, her cottage pie stage........ they didn't last a couple of days. They lasted months. And how the hell do you feed a child a balanced diet one food for 2 months? You don't, you sneak microscopic bits of meat and veg in the Yoghurt, you crush vegetables on toast until you go too far and they spit and refuse the food. When dd and I went out and about to friends, I took easy to eat snacks and biscuits in case she wouldn't eat the food, which largely she didn't. Consequently, her fussy eating developed into a love of carbs and all things sweet. It was very stressful. If I could turn the clock back, I would have taken her the meal of the day to reheat. But silly me , I was trying to get her to broaden her pallet as we were told to do and so didn't. And as I was very ill and became chronically ill by the time she was 3, no, I didn't have the energy to let her scream it out and beg and pull and drag and hit. I wouldn't have coped being far too ill.

Your post sounds very much like the smug parents, who think their dcs lack of mega tantrums is down to them, not personality type or as a pp said, because they're too scared.

Hell yes!

I remember watching my sister give her 2 year old a little sip of her coke, and thinking how terrible, I'd never do that... completely forgetting that DS1 thought that fizzy drinks were awful and only ever wanted to drink milk or water.

Then DS2 came along. He ate and drank anything, and I once found him (under 2 at the time) scaling the back of the settee in order to get to a can of gin and tonic I'd left on a high shelf. The only way to keep him out of the cola was to not have any in the house.

I've had 2 extremely fussy eaters despite home cooked delights (these are the same nightmare sleepers I mentioned earlier).

DC3 is doing fab with his food. Not doing anything different, he is just a great eater and sleeper.

I'm so glad I had 2 difficult ones, and now an easier one. Means I never don my judgey pants

Mrsfrisbymouse

Thankyou for posting information about the autism study. Since my child was diagnosed I have had no help. I think people imagine your child gets a diagnosis and there is help for parents. I have had nothing. Camhs offer CBT for my child but also state this is not suitable for children with asd !

Red peppers no matter how much time and effort I put in I can't make my child's autism go away. Your post made me feel worse about my self.

tooth brushing is non negotiable in my house as well. how we achieve the non negotiable is a different matter... I still have most of my fingers

YANBU my ds is amazingly well behaved, always has been and is a delightful 15yo (for now) but I have no idea where he got it from. I'm not ultra strict or lenient and I probably did think I was doing great until dd came along and proved that sometimes kids are just that way inclined. DD can be a bit of a struggle in comparison.

Mmm, it's tricky. I have to say that I like to take credit when the kids are good but I like to blame their genes/ them if they are naughty. Seems as good as way of doing things as any 😂

I actually don't know many naughty kids and the one family I know I definitely blame the parents. Poor kids don't stand a chance. They have no bedtimes, terrible food and no consistent rules etc. I sit there thinking don't judge, don't judge, don't judge but then they do something and I judge.

However, if it was all to do with the parenting then why am I perfect but my brothers and sisters are, umm, not so perfect. I'm really hard working and sensible but my siblings are the very opposite. We have the same parents.

The one thing that you should obviously never do is assume anything about other families (unless you know them well enough ....and even then...)

The one thing that Mumsnet has made clear to me is that there are an awful lot of people dealing with all sorts of things.

I agree with the OP up to a point.
I have three children, all raised in exactly the same way, all very different.
Emerald, I have to say, you sound very smug - I did all of the things you did with all three of my children, and I have ended up with one OK eater, one terrible faddy eater and one brilliant one. If I had only had two children, I would have probably thought I had cracked it too.
Where I do disagree is with sleeping though - I do recognise that some babies just do not sleep - but I also think a lot of the modern parenting norms actually encourage poor sleeping habits.
I have lost count of the number of 'discussions' I have got into over on the Sleep board, when mums are feeding their babies to sleep, never putting them down or allow them to cry and regarding several night-time wakings normal in a 10-month-old and will happily entertain the baby until it deigns to drop off. They then wonder why their toddler is reluctant to settle in their own bed, usually when baby number two is imminent.
I also think as a parent, you have never quite 'cracked it' so it doesn't pay to be so confident - Emerald I am looking at you again! My daughter (faddy) was a great eater until she was about six, then stopped overnight. It happens.
Likewise the mums helpfully pointing out that their two-year-old 'knows the consequences' of not tidying up to the mum of untidy teens. Just because you have cracked it at two does not mean the child will stay that way, but some people don't seem to get that.

cath gosh, yes. When mine were preschoolers we played tidy up games. Now they're older primary kids they couldn't care less and refuse to tidy up even for pocket money. The mess sits there day after day until it gets too dangerous for me to walk around it and I have to sort a bit out.

I just get a bit pissed off when people say "you are SOOOOOOOOOOOO lucky with your 2"

I think - cheers, yep allllllllllll luck...

really interesting replies. thanks!

I think this is a sore point for me. My kids are pretty wild, and we recently had my mum to stay. She was obviously shocked by the level of sheer chaos/ noise/ bad behavior and I was mortified. But then she had two very quiet, bookish girls and when I was little I was terrified of putting a foot wrong, which probably wasn't a good thing either. My kids are wild but confident. But I always feel wretched when she's here, as if I've failed as a mother and she's judging me. I think I always automatically blame myself for parenting 'failures' but just yesterday was starting to think maybe it just is harder for some parents than others.

The added factor is that some children are more influenced than others. There was a really interesting study about it that said that basically some children could be put anywhere and turn out pretty much the same and some would be influenced much more. It wouldn't surprise me because adaptability is a genetic trait.

There's an irritating mum in my DD's class who frowns at my DD and tells her off and actually muttered, "because someone has to" to another mum. She has a very biddable child. I have a child with ADHD who requires (and gets) constant parenting. Both her and her DH are shy, quiet people. So is their DD. Theirs is a leg-clinger who cries at being left or doing anything new. DD just cracks on. She appears to never attribute THAT to parenting.