to think that when people congratulate themselves for their great parenting they are often just lucky

[deliverdaniel]

I've seen so many threads on here where people say that people should "just teach their kids to, or not to x, y, z" or "do some parenting" or "mine never did that at that age- I just taught them not to" or similar. They are often quite smug and even nasty in tone.

Of course good parenting matters. But it seems as though so much of what kind of kid you get is just the luck of the draw. Eg- my friend's toddler can easily be told "no" and will respect the boundaries. Mine can be told no a million times, with consquences enforced every time and will keep pushing and pushing. My kids are pretty good eaters. My friend's will basically only eat pasta and nothing else, but I really wouldn't say we have done anything substantially different on that front. I just got lucky. one of my kids sits still and "behaves" easily. The other one is wild. One is a great sleeper. The other one terrible. One whines at everything. One is generally always positive and agreeable. Etc etc.

Of course there are parents who just ignore their kids behaving badly and are screwing up in some major way. But mostly I see parents doing their best , generally doing similar kinds of things w regards to discipline/ eating/ sleep etc etc and getting v different results depending on the kid. Caveat- mine are still pretty young- 6 and 3 so maybe my "parenting" willbear fruit later, for better or worse, but so much of it just seems down to luck. AIBU?

Sometimes they weren't even 'lucky'. Sometimes they have produced utter shits who excel at every type of anti-social behaviour, but they still feel entitled to tell you how to raise your dc's!

Why do you say you failed deliver? I'd say if you were subdued and lacking in confidence, your mother failed. Not you. I was that subdued, submissive, self loathing child. My mother of course thinks she can give me parenting advice and has told me to reign my daughter in and threatened to smack her. Let's say it didn't end well for my mother. I stopped speaking to her for a couple of months. I got a "sorry if" apology letter eventually. I let her back into our lives - at arms length.

mummyoflittledragon I guess because I would like my children to behave 'better' too. My mum's standards are very high, but in reality not that different from mine still, I would love my kids to listen more/ not whine/ fight/ go completely crazy in the house so it's not as if I think what they are doing is totally fine- it's just hard to get them to stop. Which makes me feel like a bad parent.

There's no way to say that you're proud of doing a good job in xyz where kids are concerned. There'll always be someone with a poor eater/sleeper/listener etc who'll say that of course they did all the same things as you so you must just be lucky.

Meh. Like I said, I am proud about what we've done for the dc food wise, about the palettes we've helped them develop and the work we've put in, more so with ds2. And I'm still pretty sure that it's not mainly down to luck, any more so than any dc who has developed some kind of skill or achievement in other areas...that skill/natural ability has been nurtured by the parents which is down to graft, not luck.

You're probably doing a darn sight better than you give yourself credit as you're actually questioning your parenting. Most people don't. And this better behaviour you want can't be at any cost (IE their confidence). And it's no point feeling guilty. Change what you can and let the rest of it go. Differentiate between your mothers values and yours. Pick your battles. I've only got one child so I'm not going to have the full perspective on the sibling rivalry - she sees a friend, who's kind of like a sibling - so I get it to a certain extent. I find consequences work well with dd. Removal of privileges such as the iPad or a favourite activity. My friend does not tolerate physical fighting between her children and when it happened, her ds was made to go to bed straight after his tea, had his tablet confiscated for a week and didn't get money he'd been promised to buy something he wanted. I was at her discipline but it hasn't happened since. Unlike between brother and myself - he bullied me relentlessly and mother was inefficatious. Parenting isn't easy. I'd try to stop myself from being drawn in to comparisons between my mother and myself. Because if she wanted, she could be really smug as you and your sister were more subdued and your defence would look like sour grapes or an attack of her.

Emerald

mummyoflittledragon thank you. that makes me feel better. don't get me wrong- I'm so proud of my boys in so many ways - they are sweet natured and generally polite and thoughtful and observant and curious about the world and very quirky. I guess I just tend to think all the 'bad' things are my fault and the good things are just them. I think the consequences thing is a good one- they work very well wtih my elder one- the younger one doesn't seem to care in the slightest, but he may start to as he gets older.

That's all very well Emerald but I've seen my cousin work hard at food and have a child who doesn't eat fruit or vegetables. He was always small and picky and just wouldn't eat if offered food he didn't like. And lost weight.

My child has a varied and good diet. Which I could take credit for, I do all that you do... but so does my cousin. And more. She's a much more diligent mother than I am about food.

Have seen too many sets of siblings to think it's largely parenting. Some children are born compliant, some not. These sorts of convos make me think of an article I read about beautifully behaved children. And pointed out that the prime desired qualities in children sound insulting when used on grow ups: 'obedient' 'compliant' and 'quiet'.

This:

I think children are a work in progress - some children just 'get it' earlier than others. I have to remind my children to be polite all the time - I never let them get away with being rude but I still don't know at what point politeness will become second nature and I won't need to remind them anymore!

Some children just need more 'parenting' than others to achieve the same goals. So yes, I think it is often down to luck how easy or not that might be. Obviously bad parenting can mean these goals are never achieved, but then you do see children who turn out very well inspite of their parents!

Also, fussy eaters, I was one. However, as an adult I eat absolutely eveything and would consider myself to be a good cook too. I don't really get how being a good eater is seen as a benchmark of good parenting .

IamFriedSpam I agree with you, I don't think it's all down to parenting. But it is reassuring to think that it has quite a big effect, and certainly not none at all. That 'parenting, personality, peers' phrase seems right to me.

My sister has a lot of problems as an adult, and she was a tantrummy difficult child, but I do think her problems are a lot to do with the rubbish discipline my mother had for her. She caved, every time, whatever she wanted my sister only had to scream and scream to get it - no boundaries. If she had ever been properly disciplined I really feel she would have turned out differently.

I'm terrified of having a child like her, but though I can't control personality I can sure as hell read and research and learn all I can to do a better job when I come to have my own children.

Its a mix isn't it, like the rest of life, it isn't black and white.

Dd1 eats anything, dd2 is a bit fussier, they both have healthy diets, ds has a very restricted diet, and it is an immense struggle to make his diet as healthy as it can be.

Other aspects of their personalities and behaviours are as varied as this, and equally a mix of their upbringing, environment and their personalities.

Dh and I are fucking awesome parents though.

It's a mixture of the kid you have and the way you react/parent.

Some kids are naturally great eaters. Ds is not. But we can make a difference to a point by not making dramas over food for example.
Ds is also a total whirlwind - a very high demand baby. He's never going to be like his adorable little pal who just sits quietly and never dashes around like a loon, but we can do what we can by constantly watching him to make sure he's safe, constantly reiterating boundaries/saying no to genuinely poor behaviour (biting) and being consistent.

Be realistic and honest - is this your mum just looking back with rose tinted specs? Do you react appropriately to poor behaviour? I know my mum says Ds is well parented but much more demanding than I was. It's not reasonable to expect tiny kids to be quiet all the time and seen and not heard.
As long as you are setting consistent boundaries and reacting appropriately to your children's behaviour you're ok!

Example: child has a tantrum in a cafe. It happens. It's not always easy for them to sit still. What's not reasonable would be them running wild in a cafe and the mum turning a blind eye.
Or, child running wild at home, starting to get a bit out of hand.
Poor parenting - ignoring it until child is overhyped and does something that causes distress or injury.
Poor parenting - verbal or physical aggression to stop the behaviour.
Good parenting - gentle intervention to distract/explain/redirect the behaviour followed by action to reduce it (the park to burn off energy, checking they aren't tired/hungry/upset etc) and enforcement of age associated consequence - stppping an activity or removing an item they want but are damaging for example.

Parenting is bloody hard work. Kids are wild little beings, don't beat yourself up over that. As long as you're working towards the long goal of producing balanced, loving decent humans you're probably ok.

Like many others i had a completely unblemished parenting record until my bloody children came along and ruined it.

My children are astonishingly badly behaved. They are the shittest sleepers and eaters i have ever come across - even 4mo dd1 who is breaking even her older brothers records of terrible babyness. But, what is always commented on is their politeness (i cling to this like a fucking life raft). I always laugh at the time the creche told me ds1 was the most polite child they had met and that even when he was mid tantrum he would be screaming 'NO THANKYOU' and 'I WANT A BISCUIT PLEASE'.

I like to think if i had well behaved children i'd feel there for the grace of god... But i probably wouldn't, i'd probably be smugging it up on the internet like all the others.

Agreed! There was a thread the other day about teaching a 2 year old to just not touch other people's belongings! Ha! How laughed! My dd was a total nightmare for doing everything she shouldn't at that age. It's like she attracted trouble. She would run at moving cars, open drawers so that its entire contents fell on her, pull down curtains off rails. Saying now, removing her, physically restraining her when she threw herself down on the floor..it was energy sapping. However, as a 6 year old she is still very accident prone but a lovely girl and, very importantly, very kind. My little boy is an angel in comparison- he doesn't seek out trouble, follows instructions etc. It is eye opening just seeing the other side of things..

I definitely agree that there is luck in getting 'an easy child'. My DD1 is apparently a model pupil at school. I don't think for a moment that is down to our parenting. A lot of her positive behaviour was learnt at nursery, so even if it is acquired rather than innate, we can't take the credit as parents.

If I could give one piece of parenting advice to my DDs, it would be "have children with someone who was an easy child". Both DH and I were easy babies and fairly compliant children and I'd guess that there is some genetic element to temperament.

Anatidae that's a really good summary- thanks.

I think also it works the other way too. Good children make good parents. On days when my children are behaving relatively well, I have the energy to be a great parent- responding positively, giving lots of praise, doing interesting and enriching activities etc etc. But when it starts going wrong it's a kind of downhill spiral. I start firefighting, lose control, get exhausted, shout etc etc.

But generally I think most people parent in a broadly similar way and we tend to massively exaggerate the differences. Of course there are terrible parents and brilliant ones, but at least for most people I know in RL we are doing the roughly the same sorts of things maybe with subtle differences and some more consistently than others and mainly just trying to get through the day with no great overall masterplan. So it seems odd that people can respond in quite such an extreme and often nasty way to what amounts to relatively small differences in parenting styles and competency.

Parenting books/courses/ training/ anything that promotes good ideas to help a parent having difficulty in managing their dc's behaviour are all good things as without doubt some dc are more challenging than others.

But it is also true that some parents make the situation worse. I have a very well educated friend who woud prefer to label her ds rather then face up to the fact she is overindulgent, has no boundaries with him and won't let her ds know she is upset with his behaviour because she doesn't want him to experience anymore shouting or 'bad vibes' since leaving her abusive ex (ds' father.)

Some mothers yell obscenities at their dc in the supermarket and cuff them round the ear when their dc copy the mother's behaviour..the list of possibilities to judge others parenting styles is endless.

It could be argued that the worst cases are when the dc's unacceptable behaviour is seen as acceptable or provokes no response by the parent. But then we don't know their background..whether it's a matter of 'picking their battles' or ignoring for an easy life.

Certainy there are some harrowing examples on MN where parents are at the end of their tether where the dc swear, spit, kick and hit and tear chunks off walls. Others where this is normal behaviour from their dc.

There is no 'normal' it seems.

When it comes to fussy eaters, how would that child cope in a developing country where there were no other choice but to eat what was on offer? There are no recorded cases there so it does seem very much to be a first world (psychological) problem, like so many of the issues parents/dc face.

I think the biggest problems come from parents who spoil their dc and skivvy after their every need. These parents don't expect their dc to be kind, considerate of others or helpful to others or around the house.

These dc grow up to be self entitled, selfish and expect others to clean and tidy up after them and are often very short tempered when not getting their own way.

Boarding schools, independent schools and state schools all have these types of dc and it's often the parent who laments that the child wanted for nothing and then they are shocked their dc turn into such monsters.

Now I think it's about 80 per cent personality and 20 per cent parenting.

Agree

If I could give one piece of parenting advice to my DDs, it would be "have children with someone who was an easy child". Both DH and I were easy babies and fairly compliant children and I'd guess that there is some genetic element to temperament.

Agree! Unfortunately I did the opposite - DH was apparently a horror as a child (only found this out after we had DD, thanks MIL!)

Smugness pisses me off anyway usually because it's the twats who have nothing to congratulate themselves for being smug but I think you're right OP. My kids have their moments when they're little stars and they have their moments when they're little toads. Basic rules and boundaries are important (manners, safety, kindness, hygiene etc) but I tend to pick my battles so I'm not "that" mum that's yelling or being smug. They seem like decent people most of the time so far, which is enough for me.

Ha! Dh and I were both easy kids.

Ds is lovely, no behaviour issues per se, but just a whirlwind of curiosity and energy. Doesn't sleep, terrible eater, very sensitive, utter chaos. We are knackered. He's demanding!

We do our best. We are loving, secure and consistent and we respond (hopefully) appropriately when he is being a little demon. Like most parents I think we just muddle through - looking back I think we've done ok so far, no major things I'd change (except trying a dummy earlier as he won't take one and mix feeding as he is a bottle refuser!)

It's a long game. There will be tantrums, bad behaviour and afternoons where you just want to cry under the table. There will be ups and downs. As long as you're gradually moving forwards to creating decent little humans it's ok. It's unreasonable to expect term to behave 100% if the time. It takes them years and a LOT of repetition to learn to regulate their emotions.
What's important is the general parenting attitude and atmosphere they grow up with.

Parenting is hard. It's the hardest thing I've ever done for sure.

Emerald, having a 'good eater' (no idea whatbwe judge that on anyway) is very much based on luck. Please don't kid yourself otherwise.

My dd has no appetite. Literally. You cannot make her eat if she is not hungry. I was the same as a kid, bit better as an adult. I used to get really stressed about this. And then I realised that, as an adult, if you only eat when you are hungry and eat within your appetite, then you are pretty much set for life.

Luck plays a part but parenting is the biggest single influence on how a child turns out - morally, socially and academically. Good parenting is hard work. It's not always comfortable and can be incredibly frustrating

Agree with this.

I think people who say 'parenting hardly makes a difference' really only look short term. They are liable to say things like 'I raised my 2yo and 4yo the same but they behave so differently!'

But long-term, like into adulthood, I think parenting matters hugely. I know that I have subtly imbibed many attitudes and habits from my parents - even ones I in theory disagree with. They are still there in the back of my mind! At a really deep level, so many of my instinctive responses are conditioned, for good or ill, by the way I was parented.

DD definitely has her own personality and has done from a few days old, if not before. But parenting certainly makes a big difference. She is naturally very strong-willed but fucking loads of persistence does eventually pay off. Routine has definitely made her happier. Security and constant affection, but also firm boundaries, definitely over time have modified her behaviour, which often tends to the wilful/ scratchy/ bite-y end of the scale.

So you get what you're given, IMO, but what you do with it is what really counts.

I always laugh at the time the creche told me ds1 was the most polite child they had met and that even when he was mid tantrum he would be screaming 'NO THANKYOU' and 'I WANT A BISCUIT PLEASE'

Ah ha ha, this reminds me of DD. A few weeks back it was raining outside and she was having a right strop about it, shouting 'no THANK YOU' at the sky! Once she started 'being a monster' so I did the whole 'Oh no! What does a monster say?' - expecting a growl - she paused and said 'Please...?'