To be baffled by and disappointed with the amount of transphobia on MN?

[ShutTheFuckUpBarbara]

I know I'll get flamed for voicing my opinion on this, but I don't care.

I just don't understand why there is so much hatred for trans people on here.

Yes, some trans activists are extremists and no I don't agree with them, but should all other trans people suffer because of them?

I get that there are issues that need to be addressed, as highlighted by recent items in the news and recent threads (which prison should trans people be sent to, can a MTW be a girl guide leader and various others). I don't have a solution for these, but I feel that as a society we should work together to make it work, rather than just spout hatred and insults.

It is especially disappointing as there are a lot of people in the trans community suffering mental health issues, often as the result of how they are being treated, and MN is usually a safe haven for people with MH issues.

I used to enjoy reading the Feminism chat (or most of it anyway), now almost every thread on there is transphobic

Most of us here are women, a lot of us are from ethnic minorities, or have a disability, a lot of us have been discriminated against, we know what it feels like so why do it to others??

"these are very valid concerns and I have been giving a lot of thought to these issues lately. I genuinely do not know where I stand on some of them."

Why don't you spend a few minutes thinking about & figuring out the issues before you call their discussion "transphobic", OP?

It sounds like you have drunk the cool-aid without

"Toot thats a transMAN, isn't it? A female to male transition."

No, she's a very vocal transwoman activist.

We need a definition for woman that manages to include actual females as well as Mtt, yet that is neither circular nor based on regressive stereotypes. Preferably one with some sort of sciencey basis.

The day someone give me this definition, I vow to hang up my feminist hat and wholeheartedly accept Mtt as women

... ...

Trans women should be allowed access to women's spaces because they are women. Your gender identity is not more valid because you happen to have been born with female sex organs.

No. Just no.

Refuges? Changing rooms? Toilets?

Fuck. That.

Sorry I had no idea "cis" was offensive, I won't use it again. I apologise to anyone who was offended by it.

To the PP who ask which comments specifically I am referring to, I have reported the comments that concerned me, and this isn't a TAAT, so I won't quote directly. But I have seen several comments dismissing trans people's feelings about their gender, and a lot of nastiness about wanting to muscle in on women's rights.

Again, I agree that some trans activists are extremists and are going too far. A PP drew a parallel with Muslim extremists ; I grew up in a Muslim household and I can see and hear every day the damage these extremists are doing to the Muslim community. Extremism of any kind is bad news.

I don't think questioning these issues is transphobic btw, and a discussion definitely needs to be had, it's the tone of some posters that I find shocking

Also offended by CIS, and I'm very difficult to offend.

As I said upthread, Danielle muscato took up a space in a female refuge.
Beard n'all.

MN won't give us their definition either. Because if they do it becomes set in stone, a stick with which to beat posters with, to stifle debate. They have, if I remember rightly, said they will take it on a case by case basis so as to allow debate.

Would you want to shut that down?

If so, why?

Ourblanche, why does defining what transphobia is shut down debate? It's an accusation that's thrown around as though MN is rife with hatred for transgender people. I have genuinely never seen any open hatred of any transgender people. And yet, every time transphobia is shouted, there's never any actual examples given of the transphobia that's being called out.

Why does defining the term transphobic stifle debate? Surely most people who want to discuss transgender issues would benefit from knowing the terms of transphobia to avoid deletion so debate can flow?

I've seen numerous accusations of transphobia- usually a one off post in the middle of a thread & the accuser never defines it or quotes the posts they deem transphobic. Thats my issue.

Sorry I had no idea "cis" was offensive

You obviously haven't been studying the feminist board that Closely then.

Transideology is lesbophobic, homophobic and misogynyistic.

Currently it seems that one has to make a choice between bring considered transphobic or being lesbophobic, homophobic and misogynyistic.

I'll take being called transphobic over the above any day of the week.

Before all this trans stuff hit the mainstream, feminists would get called "man haters" when they stood up for women's rights.

"Transphobic" is the new shiny pomo right-on way of calling women man haters. That's all.

Either you agree to being defined, exploited, colonised and dominated by men or you are transphobic/a man hater. "Transphobia" is trendier but it is just a synonym for man hater.

Same old, same old.

The trouble with cis, op, is that the entire premise suggests that as I female I "identify with" the oppression that females have historically faced (and continue to). That I am happy in that role. Iyswim?

I'm not a is woman (not sure I even know what that is) I am a woman. I have no problem with men wearing dresses and makeup. I have a problem where young children are allowed or even encouraged to make life changing decisions based on very little evidence it is in their best interest.
I acknowledge lots of transgender people have mental health needs but am unclear as to how well researched cause and effect are. Which came first ? Could transgender identity be a result of mental health issues as opposed to the cause? If somadds strength to view that there should perhaps be a minimum age for changing gender. It's illegal to have sex before 16 should we be stopping children making such decisions until then too?
Identity as something doesn't make us that thing no matter how much we want it, does it? Wearing a dress does not make a man a woman. Of course men should be allowed to express a softer more traditionally feminine side. They don't need to pretend to be women to do so.
If I want a pension, can I identify as an octogenarian? Thought not.

I don't agree there is "transphobia" on Mumsnet. Lots of Mumsnetters have a very simple viewpoint.

1. People can choose to wear what they want, call themselves what they want, do whatever floats their boat in their free time. Peace and love, be yourself, no criticism from me.

1. Biological sex is something fixed and which cannot be changed. There is not such thing as "woman brain" and "man brain". Sex is not a feeling.

1. Male to trans people have as much right to respect and tolerance as everyone else. However, demanding that biological men get access to women's spaces or compete against women in the Olympics is just wrong at so many levels. It's eroding everything women have fought for over the last century.

1. There is a very vocal minority in the trans community who are spoiling for a fight at every opportunity and label anyone who doesn't go along with their "lady penis" and "a 4 year old boy dressing up as a princess is obviously trans" rhetoric and a bigot or phobic. Not the case.

MN has some interesting perspective re trans. It has certainly opened my eyes to some of the major issues with regards the whole trans issue. In particular the extremist TRA's who seem to have hijacked the movement with ridiculous demands and stipulations.

However, I do think things on here go a bit too far and tip towards being unpleasant at times. I think that it's unfair to dismiss trans people's identity out of hand. I will treat every trans person I meet how they want to be treated, including using their pronouns.

Trans women should be allowed access to women's spaces because they are women. Your gender identity is not more valid because you happen to have been born with female sex organs
How do you define what a woman is then?
If it's a decision made by each individual, then are you saying that biology is irrelevant?
If biology is irrelevant, then why do we ever have separate male and female spaces?

He is a man who likes looking like a man, dressing as a stereotypical man, yet wants to be seen as a woman, accorded any and all female rights and protections.

I don't have a problem with trans women dressing as men. Many women do prefer more masculine outfits.

The problem for me is how he defines feeling like a woman.

He's certainly not discriminated as a man who dresses like a men are expected to.
What does he think we women feel like?

I will scream 'man in a frock' from the rooftops before I accept myself myself as a subcatergory of woman.

And I'll be right beside you with a megaphone. There are women and transwomen, we don't need to be redefined.

As I said upthread, Danielle muscato took up a space in a female refuge

That is fucking insane. It its transphobic to have a massive problem with that, then call me phobic.
It's not though, really, anyone can see that. We are now at the point where men are LITERALLY stealing womens actual safe spaces (not metaphorical) because they identify as women.

So men who feel like women are now more important that women. SICK.

I also find the following conversation frustrating:

MN poster - well, it's ridiculous, if anyone who feels like a woman can be a woman, what do you call a woman who was born a woman? There is no word for that, it's all confusing, we are losing our language.

Other poster: cis-woman, AFAB, both cover women who were born with a gender identity that matches their bio identity.

MN poster - OMG! THAT IS SO OFFENSIVE! CIS IS BAD! WE MUST BE CALLED WOMEN, ONLY WOMEN, NO ONE ELSE CAN BE A WOMAN! THIS IS WHY TRANS WOMEN ARE BAD.

It's why I flat out don't believe the posters who say they want to support and respect trans women and just want to find a way to compromise. They don't. There is no reason why it hurts anyone to use the word 'cis' except it's a sign of losing that one bit of privilege and a lot of the women here are staggeringly reluctant to do that. They can cite feminism as much as they like, but I don't think it's feminist to use your own oppression as a reason to kick others when they are down.

Great post, Tin.

Cis is offensive

It's basically saying the word woman is good enough anymore.

You can't just be a woman

You have to be a cis woman so you don't offend the transpeople

No. I am a woman. Not a cis woman

There is no reason why it hurts anyone to use the word 'cis'

Are you just being obtuse? Or have you just not read the threads where this was discussed AT LENGTH?

Stating biological fact is now considered transphobic. It leads to ridiculous situations like the recent newspaper articles about a woman who groomed and sexually abused young boys. Leads to posts under the article like 'see, women commit these crimes too.' Except that the perpetrator was a biological male who now identified as a woman. No mention of this in the article. This crime is reported as being committed by a woman and will be statistically recorded as such, skewing data. Are you happy with that? As a woman I'm furious about it but apparently calling a male sex offender a male is transphobic.